(gentle music)
Welcome to, "Hadley Presents" episode one.
I'm your host, Ricky Enger, inviting you to sit back, relax,
and enjoy a conversation with the expert.
For this episode, our conversation centers
around using technology to gain access
to visual information.
And our expert is Jonathan Mosen from Aira.
Welcome to the show, Jonathan.
Hi Ricky, it's nice to talk to you and a
special honor to be on episode one, so thank you for that.
Absolutely, and we'll be super gentle with you
'cause I understand this is like your first time ever
in front of a microphone, right?
That's right. I'm very nervous.
Yes.
(both laughing)
Quite nervous.
(both laughing)
That might be a slight bit of an exaggeration.
You might've maybe done like a couple
of other things in front of a microphone.
Why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are
and what you do?
Once or twice, yes.
Well I have been a podcaster
and internet broadcaster for a long time.
Recently I just celebrated my 20th anniversary
of doing live internet radio,
which is crazy stuff. Yeah.
I've worked in assistive technology a bit.
Worked at HumanWare managing blindness products there
for three years and then had a long stint
at Freedom Scientific
and I've also run my own consultancy company
called Mosen Consulting.
But I joined Aira on White Cane Day last year,
October 15th, 2018.
And I'm their VP of Explorer Communications
and also for Australasia, which is Australia
and New Zealand.
How cool is that?
So for people who don't know what Aira is, what's kind
of the quick elevator pitch as to what the Aira service is?
Aira connects you 24/7 through smart glasses
or a smartphone app with professionally trained agents
who give you visual interpretation.
So anything visual that's out there and there's a lot
of visual stuff out there.
I'll say.
That you need turned into audio,
we can do that for you.
And the whole point of Aira is
that our agents are professionally trained, they go
through quite a rigorous process
and we only take on, oh gosh, I think we're down
to about less than 3% of the people who apply
and we act as a pair of eyes, not a brain.
So you are in absolute control.
So you used the phrase visual interpretation,
and this is gonna come up a couple
of times I think throughout the conversation.
It's not something
that we hear all the time necessarily a visual interpreter.
Visual interpreter services. What exactly does that mean?
It really means, I think that when you consider
what the disability of blindness actually is, it's a lack
of access to certain sorts of information.
And if a blind person had access to braille
or talking signage, if the material that we wanted
to read was in braille or in some other form
that we could access, then blindness wouldn't be
a disability at all.
So society has created this barrier.
Vision is a very dominant sense
and so if you have vision, it's natural
to want to depend on it.
So what we do is we interpret all this visual information
into something that a blind person can access.
Now usually that's audio,
but sometimes it might be actually braille
if you're using our smartphone app with a braille display.
And this is particularly the case for people
who are deaf blind. Right.
Or it could be the case if you're
in a conference situation and it's not appropriate
for you to speak with or hear an agent
because you might be focusing
on the conference presentation, then you might want braille.
So we convert all this visual information
into the most accessible useful form for you.
And that's incredible.
I mean there are so many different uses for this
and especially the idea that you can be anywhere
at any time and essentially 24/7
because no one says, well I only need access
to visual information 8:00 to 5:00 and anything
that happens after that, no, I'm cool.
It's nice to have that 24/7, right?
It is and sometimes the way that
one might pay for
that will vary depending on the time of day.
So we do for example, have an employer program
and Airas now a pretty attractive accommodation
for many employees who are blind.
And so employers will sometimes fund Aira so that you have
that professionally trained sighted assistance on demand
and that's a real huge productivity boost.
And you're finding Aira popping up in more workplaces.
But after hours you might want to pay for Aira yourself
through a minute plan, like a cell phone plan
where you buy a set number of minutes every month.
Or alternatively, there are many locations now
where Aira is available for free.
So Aira's app is actually a free app
and you can download it.
And even if you don't choose to use any
of our premium tier plans, it's kind of like Spotify,
you can use it for free for a whole range of tasks.
And free is always nice.
That's kind of like the four letter word
that everyone loves. (chuckles)
(Jonathan laughs)
I like free, yeah. (chuckles)
Yeah, good stuff.
So we mentioned earlier that there is a ton
of visual information out there and we want
as many ways to access this stuff as possible.
And I mean this has kind of been a need
for a very, very long time.
And while Aira and various other services like Be My Eyes
or even seeing AI providing access
through artificial intelligence,
those things are relatively new on the scene.
There have been other things that have come before that.
What would you say is
like the first time you ever used a piece of technology
to access any kind of visual information?
I suppose the first piece
of technology I would've used was in the old days
at the School for the Blind,
we had a Kurzweil Reading Machine and that thing was
like a washing machine and it would sound
like a jet engine taking off when you switched it on.
But it was amazing because I remember just getting this
print book and putting it on the scanner
of the Kurzweil Reading Machine
and realizing, wow, this is just huge.
But I also remember Ricky, back in the Symbian days,
I made a 3G video call to my then little girl.
She's all sort of married now an an electrical engineer,
but she was about eight or nine then.
And I remember she was describing
to me what she could see through the camera
and even back then, and we're probably talking about 2005
or so, I thought, wow, there's some real potential here.
Exactly, I remember mine aside
from the Opticon in the olden days that
that definitely gave access to print visual information.
I remember getting my iPhone
and there was this program, I think it was called OMobi
or it was something similar.
And my thing that I wanted an answer
to then was I wanna be able
to identify I products easily.
And so when I saw this program called OMobi,
and it was, I think it was using artificial intelligence
along with OCR and so it would look at a product
and try to decipher the text and if it saw any logo
or a portion of the logo, it would try and recognize that
and tell you what the product was.
And I thought that was just the coolest thing.
It was kind of slow and not always accurate.
But like you, I thought this has a lot of potential.
Yes, and I think it's a natural progression
what's happened with Aira
and I really just can't speak highly enough
of the thought process that Suman Kanuganti Aira's CEO put
into putting this product together.
Because you're right, we could see the revolutionary nature
of this technology, but it could still be frustrating.
You just had to get the picture of the product
in exactly the right place to get a good view of it.
Yes.
Or maybe if you were checking barcodes
it could be
a really big challenge to try and just get the barcode fully
in the view and all that sort of stuff.
So there are certain things where trained sighted assistance
can just make a process so much easier.
I've been able to in hotel rooms
for a long time now use various products
to identify the shampoo from the conditioner for instance.
But it might take me three minutes
or more depending on the bottle and the lighting
and various other factors.
It's something I can get done with Aira
in about 15 seconds and I kind of think my time is just
as valuable as anyone else's.
So Aira's really making a kind of a pragmatic decision
that sure artificial intelligence is going to get better
and better, but sometimes you can't beat the combination
of augmenting that artificial intelligence
with some human interaction.
Exactly. And it's so easy.
It's easy enough that you talked about being in a hotel
and getting things identified like you, I've done this
before with other products, but when it's early
in the morning at a conference and I've had a late night
and it's time to find which is the decaf so I can avoid it
and which is not, it's way easier to call the Aira agent
and mumble at them to assist to find which
of these is caffeinated and which isn't.
Yeah, for sure. Yes.
One of many wonderful uses for this kind of thing.
When you heard about Aira, was it a thing
that you immediately said, I wanna try it right now?
And what was that first experience like?
Yeah, when I heard about Aira,
I was actually doing an interview about it
for the podcast that I was running at the time.
And intellectually I thought, this is really interesting.
I have worked in technology for a long time
and I think what happens
to you is you get a little bit immune to technology.
And somebody once told me when I first got
into this industry that the two things
in life you don't wanna see being manufactured are sausage
and software.
And I think that's probably quite right.
So, I don't know, I thought Aira might
be a little bit of hype.
And then I went to CSUN last year
and they were offering Aira access there, which meant
that it was available to try for free.
All you had to do was download the free app and sign up
and then take it for a spin.
So I thought I would do this and see what happened.
Now one thing I should add here is
that I also have a hearing impairment.
I wear hearing aids and I have found,
because my hearing loss is degenerative,
that over the years I've been starting to withdraw
from challenging noisy situations
and they don't come more challenging or noisy than CSUN.
Yeah.
Especially, you know, when you're
in the exhibit hall or when you're moving through those
really crowded lobbies. Yes.
And the hotel that CSUN used
to be at at San Diego was pretty cavernous.
So I thought, well, I'll give it a go.
I wasn't expecting a lot and I called an Aira agent
and I said, you know, I allowed a lot of time
'cause it normally took me a lot of time to do this
and said I want to get to the exhibit hall.
And the thing about Aira is
that when you call them, they, not only the video
from your camera, that camera could be
from Aira's smart glasses if you've purchased them,
or it could be just from the iOS or Android app,
but they also augment that information with other things.
So on the special dashboard software
that Aira has written in house, an agent can get map data,
they can get your GPS location,
they can bring other information up
that is related on the web.
So they have a dashboard full
of information that can assist you.
And they had map data about the hotel on their dashboard.
And the agent started directing me.
I got in late the night before,
so I couldn't even remember where the elevator was.
(Ricky laughs)
I was pretty jet lagged after a 12 hour flight
from New Zealand.
And we got down the elevator and then hearing the agent
in my hearing aids, she navigated me
through this very, very crowded, busy lobby,
which I would have hated before
because the sound was just bouncing everywhere.
She gave me some really clear instructions.
For example, you're just coming up to a group of people
who are standing talking in the middle of the lobby.
If you move left you will avoid them.
And so it was kind of like a mix
of kind of the experience you get with working
with a guide dog actually where sometimes the guide dog
avoids obstacles without you knowing it.
So we got there to the exhibit hall far, far earlier
than I had anticipated and the door was still closed.
And for me the icing on the cake was, she said,
"The door is closed in front of you,
but on your left I can see a counter
and it has a sign that says Exhibit Hall Services
and there's a man behind that counter
and I will guide you to him."
At that point, I must confess
that's when I burst into tears.
'Cause I've never used a piece of technology
before that it made me cry.
And I just realized this has changed everything for me.
I think that what Aira is doing is
the most significant thing to happen
to blind people since braille itself.
And I was just absolutely stunned
and at that point I knew that I had to take it home
For sure.
And I think that your story exemplifies
kind of a common theme in
that is having, this is life changing in that
for some people you specifically talked about withdrawing
a bit and not wanting to be in really noisy situations
because it was difficult for you to navigate
in those situations.
Or people who may not feel fully comfortable
with travel or people like me who I travel
and I kind of feel like, well I need to have a plan A
and plan B for every scenario and how I'm going
to figure out what's happening in the world
and have a contingency and all of that
before I walk out the door.
And sometimes just that is a little bit overwhelming.
And for some people they just make the decision not
to step out, but having access
to this very valuable visual information
that sighted people can look around
and get, now you're on equal footing with anyone else
and you don't necessarily have to plan in the same way for,
you know, do I have to have every single thing written down
and what if this happens, then what do I do?
You have the ability to kind of function in the world
and gain information as it's presented.
So that to me is wonderful.
Yeah and even if you
do have really good travel skills
and you don't have a hearing impairment,
you can still get information from Aira
that augments the experience.
And when you go through the onboarding process
as a new Aira explorer, you are asked kind
of like setting up a screen reader,
how much verbosity do you want when you travel?
So if you are the kind of person
that has your wits about you
and you've got really good travel skills,
you will still benefit from Aira
because they can tell you, you know,
they can describe people walking past
or the stores that you're passing
or the colors of the cherry blossoms
or whatever it is you want really
to kind of augment that information
to really help you appreciate what's around you.
And I've, I've learned a lot more about routes
that I thought I really knew well
because of all that additional description.
Right, and were you surprised by things,
like I, for one, was surprised by just how much signage
or how much print is out in the world.
You're walking down the block
and there are signs everywhere.
There's information
that I just wouldn't have been aware of before.
Yes, this is the second time
in my life this has happened to me.
The first time was when I started shopping online
for groceries in the mid 1990s and I suddenly realized
how many decisions sighted people were making
on a daily basis about the most basic things
like what loaf of bread or type of milk to buy.
And there's just so much choice.
And I really had no appreciation of that before
because normally you just go into a supermarket
and you would ask for your normal brand
and get the job done.
And using Aira was like that in a much greater way,
just the amount of visual information information.
But it also just allows you to do things
that you might not have contemplated
before, even if you do have blindness skills.
One example is that my wife Bonnie
and I now go to the farmer's market
on a Sunday morning, we would not have done
that without one of the kids before
because you kind of get trapped.
You walk up to a table at random, sometimes you can smell
at a farmer's market what they're selling, but usually not.
So you go up to a table and you say, what are you selling?
And then you get this big spiel about
how these are the greatest tomatoes
that have ever been invented.
I hate tomatoes, right?
Me too.
So I just wanna get away.
But you're kind of trapped. Yeah.
But if you go to a-
Walk away.
Yeah. (chuckles)
Yeah, but gotta be polite.
If you go to a farmer's market with Aira though,
you're looking around in the same way that anybody's looking
around and the agent will say to you,
"There's a store on your right selling tomatoes."
And I'll say, "Well let's just walk past that right now."
And we can move on, so it has opened up.
Even for somebody with really good blindness skills,
it's opened up a whole lot of new opportunities.
Have you ever had anything strange or unexpected
or just weird happen during an Aira recall
or something that you expected to happen one way
and things went a little differently for you?
Hmm, one thing actually is that
we recently went
to a 50th birthday party and they decided
that they would have a kind of like fireworks thing
that they'd stockpiled fireworks
from the last holiday where fireworks were
on sale (chuckles) in preparation
for this 50th birthday party.
And it was actually Bonnie who said to me,
'cause I've just become used to listening
to fireworks displays and enjoying the sounds,
actually. Right. Yeah.
And Bonnie said to me,
"Hey, why don't we call Aira?"
And it would never have occurred
to me actually, I must admit.
And so we called Aira
and we got this most incredible real time audio description
of all the different colors and the sort of shooting stars
and different things like that.
And it was a really telling example for me
of the fact that, you might use Aira to introduce you
to a whole different experience you never thought
of doing before.
That's it. Exactly.
What about for everyday stuff?
I know that for me being a happy Aira explorer,
I still kind of struggle with remembering that it's there.
I'm so accustomed to doing things
without a visual interpreter on the other end
that it's hard to remember this is in the toolbox.
Do you find that was the case for you
or did you jump right in and you use
it kind of a lot more than you thought you would?
Jonathan] I used to find that the case. Absolutely.
And when I first got Aira, I almost saw using it
as an admission of defeat in some way.
So if I dropped some sort of crazy object
or couldn't locate it. Yep.
I would happily sort of grope around
and grovel around for 10 or 15 minutes looking
for the thing and then I would kind of see it
as a surrender, okay, I'm gonna call Aira and see
if they can see this.
And of course within 20 seconds they've the thing.
And then I started to realize, look, my time is just
as valuable as anybody else's
and this is a new piece of technology.
It's not a surrender, it's not an admission of defeat.
And I think I also had to get over the idea
that maybe I was bothering Aira with something trivial.
'Cause I have sighted children and I'm always respectful
of the fact that I'm the parent and
if I ping them too much about tasks that I could do myself
with a little bit of time and thought is kind of undermining
that and taking advantage a little bit.
So I had that mindset and then I realized, hang on,
Aira actually wants me to consume their service
so I'm not bothering anybody by calling them.
I'm actually doing them a favor (chuckles)
by consuming my minutes. Yes.
But it's a very new way to think
that actually, here is a service
that wants me to ask these things.
And then I suppose you get
onto the philosophical question,
well are we all becoming a bit soft because of Aira?
But, I have two answers to that, one is
that one thing I've noticed
as somebody who does have a hearing impairment
and my directionality has suffered a little bit
because of it, I noticed that if I do a route
with Airas, say getting from the elevator on the floor
that I land on to my hotel room, if I do that once or twice
or three times with Aira and get it right,
because Aira's going to get me there correctly every time
I find that I build up muscle memory and by the third
or fourth time I don't call Aira
because it's been committed to memory
in such a consistent sequence that I can do it now.
So I find that Aira has enhanced my skills.
I also think that we talked about
how some people withdraw for various reasons,
maybe they haven't unfortunately had access
to appropriate rehabilitation training and that's dreadful
and we need to keep advocating
to fix that. Yes.
But if they've had a taste of getting out there
thanks to Aira, it lifts the bar.
It makes them, makes people realize what's possible.
And I think that can spur people on to perhaps realizing,
look, I don't need to be cooped up anymore.
I want to get additional rehab training.
I want to do these things.
So, I think Aira's a very positive development.
And also I would observe that, look people have
been lamenting the advancement
of technology forever since the pocket calculator
or you know, that's supposed
to have eroded our brains with math skills
or yeah. Yep.
So, we obviously it's good to just
as people have always said,
well you should have good slate and stylus skills.
even though there were Perkins, Brailers and beyond now.
The same is true, you should always make sure
that you keep up your O&M skills
and your TDL skills even though you have Aira.
But the fact is it just makes life
so much more inclusive and easier.
I think that's absolutely true.
And your point about people who use Aira
for a task a couple of times and then do it
without Aira is a great example
of just how this isn't necessarily an erosion
of skills using a technology like Aira
to accomplish some of these tasks.
But rather it can give someone either the confidence
to try new things or just
if someone is watching you perform a task
and giving you information about it, you're going
to naturally pick up on things using what you do have
and say, oh, well I can for example, use my spoon and tell
that the pasta is floating in the pot.
I don't need an interpreter to kind of tell me
that anymore and I can do this on my own now.
So I think that it can actually be an increase
in independence in some instances.
Yes, I think so.
It's taking us a while
to understand how this new kind of technology fits
into our life, but for me it has really improved my quality
of life immeasurably.
And there are many people out there who have a disability
in addition to blindness.
And that's certainly the case for me.
And it has just made a tremendous quality
of life difference to me.
Do you think there are differences
beyond just simply not wanting to depend on friends
and family to get access to some of this visual information?
Are there differences
in the kind of information you might get from Aira
versus the kind of information that you might get
from a friend or a family member?
Yes, and I think
that this is a really important distinction
that you might make in terms of getting information
from somebody who has not been trained
to provide information to a blind person.
This is one of the areas where Aira really shines
because all of the agents at Aira have been
through, firstly, a 30 day process of training
after the initial interview that got them into
that training in the first place.
And then there's a kind of a vetting process
at the end of that.
So it's pretty rigorous
before an Aira agent ever gets on the dashboard.
And so some people are better
at describing things than others, we know this.
You know, you can ask somebody random
on the street or even a family member who should know better
about where something is and they'll tell you it's that way
and you say, well, (laughs) or it's over there.
That's another of my favorite ones.
So Aira agents go through extensive about how
to describe something and they are also trained
to make sure that they understand
that you are the person who was actually in charge.
You're not surrendering any autonomy
by using an Aira agent to get information.
In the end you decide where you're headed,
they're simply interpreting all this visual data for you.
Sometimes family members can
be a little over helpful, a little bossy.
Just because they are family members,
it doesn't necessarily mean they've been endowed
with this gift to describe things in an objective way.
And also I think sometimes, you know, family members can be
a little impatient from time to time.
Yep.
So yeah, it kind of puts you in charge
and it makes you realize that you're not imposing
on anybody by getting this information from Aira.
Yeah, I think it's having kind of this
service transaction where you are paying for,
or you have access to a service and it is meant
to be transactional rather than kind of the lines
being unclear about, well, I've done this for you,
so now you owe me things or you don't owe me things.
That level of distinction is nice to have as well.
Yes.
I mean, I'm frequently grateful still more
than a year on when I use Aira
and sometimes I have an experience.
One that was quite recent for me, I was checking out
of a hotel at 4:00 AM and (chuckles) I went down
to the hotel front desk
and the lobby was, it was the exact antithesis
of the CSUN experience. No way.
It was completely silent.
No one's there.
There was no sound at all,
no music playing, even.
Nothing to guide me to where the front desk was.
You know, I'd only been in this hotel sort of overnight.
So I couldn't remember where the front desk was
from the elevator.
The agent guided me to the front desk and then we found
that there was nobody there
behind the front desk there were probably taking a nap.
And so the agent was able to guide me
to where the bell was to press to get some attention.
I may well have got there,
but it would've taken me a lot longer
to get those things done and maybe I would've been delayed
from my flight or something like that.
So frequently, things still happen to me where I'm grateful
for Aira but I'm grateful for my phone too, you know,
for my iPhone or JAWS or other technology that I use.
Yes.
It's different being grateful
for something versus being beholden to someone.
And I think that's the key point of difference.
Sure. Absolutely.
Well, we've talked a lot about humans
and visual interpretation, not
so much about the artificial intelligence aspect.
There are apps like Seeing AI that try
to interpret a scene sometimes
with really inaccurate results.
I'm not a 3-year-old girl, by the way.
Thank you Seeing AI.
Have you been called that by Seeing AI?
Yeah, Seeing AI, I've been a three-year-old girl,
and then I think I've been much, much older.
So it's not always wanting to depend on AI
to describe things exactly as they are,
but it is a part of Aira's name even.
And it's certainly a part of other technologies
that are trying to provide useful information.
Even Facebook is trying to do this.
So what do you think about AI?
You know, kind of where are we going?
What things is it going to be great at,
and what things are we still going to need humans for?
Over time, I think you'll find
that there will be more instances
where machines can learn about the sorts of tasks
that blind people are performing on a regular basis.
There are some pretty obvious candidates
for machine learning, like currency recognition
and certain pretty simple tasks like
that where a number of apps are doing pretty well.
And our own artificial intelligence, courier's working
on all of that kind of technology,
optical character recognition, all those sorts of things.
We are in a very fortunate position.
We've clocked up over 3 million minutes now
of agent service with Aira, which is a stunning achievement
for a company that is so young. (chuckles)
And with that, obviously we are gaining a lot
of information about the kind of tasks that blind
and low vision people like to use Aira for.
And obviously that data is anonymized and aggregated,
but it does mean that as machines get smarter,
we have a really profound picture
of the kinds of tasks that blind
and no vision people like to perform.
So we are tackling this in a number of ways.
You may be aware that recently we announced
that we had acquired the mobile assets of Sendero,
which is a recognized name in GPS.
So ultimately what you'll see, for example, is
that you might be able to,
from the same app, take a walk
if you are a competent enough traveler
with Sendero, when you get to the last sort of 50 feet
or 30 feet or so, that's the challenge for GPS technology,
finding the particular door,
and then once you're inside the navigation.
So we'd like to be able
to switch you ultimately seamlessly
from your GPS experience if you're comfortable using
that right onto an Aira agent who can then assist.
Ultimately, we well be able to be
in a position where we can map certain tasks indoors
with artificial intelligence
because of the machine learning that we're able to achieve.
So clearly providing human trained
professionals is not the cheapest solution,
but it's the best solution right now.
Ultimately, we may be in a position to transition more of
that, but we will never do that in a way
that compromises the outcome for the end user.
Well, I, for one, welcome our robot overloads.
(both laughing)
Yeah, it's exciting stuff.
And when you consider 5G just along the horizon
as well, because clearly sometimes cellular coverage
lets us down, right? Oh yeah.
If you're shopping somewhere
and you don't have a good cell signal, that's frustrating
and we appreciate that and it's something
that's not within our control,
but 5G will give better performance
and also 5G sales have to be much closer together.
So we're anticipating good things there as well.
Awesome, so as we unfortunately come
to a close here,
let's just quickly talk about a few interesting things
that may not have previously come up
in the conversation about how people are using Aira.
A couple from me using Aira to describe clothing
from clothing subscription boxes, that's a fun one.
Also using Aira to connect to my computer
and work with somewhat inaccessible software
and just get past some of those really frustrating bits
to get what I want to do actually accomplish.
Yeah, they're both great examples.
I use Aira with computer technology a lot,
and I was working with a client last year
and we had a router pop up in Korean,
which sadly I don't speak
and nor did my screen reader cope
with it very well. No. (chuckles)
So, I would've come to a screeching halt
helping that person were it not for the fact that Aira
could remote in and help me to configure that router.
So computer tasks are really profound.
We do have a really exciting offer available where
if you operate your own small business,
then you can use Aira for free actually
in any English speaking country.
Thanks to Intuit QuickBooks who sponsor this.
So it could be getting to a business meeting,
it could be using some sort of software
or putting a PowerPoint presentation together
for your next pitch or whatever it might be.
You can actually use Aira free as a small business owner.
This is one of the things I really love about working
with Aira is we're passionate about trying to get
that unemployment rate down.
And if we can do that through providing free service
in conjunction with our partners
for small business operators, that's one way we can do that.
Fantastic, so for people who want
to learn more about Aira, where should they go?
The website's the best place
and it's Aira, spelled A-I-R-A.io,
and there's lots of information there,
including our audio training.
So I've put together about six hours
of audio training that describes not only how
to use the app, which is basic tutorial stuff,
but how do you incorporate this into your life?
How would your life change thanks to Aira.
So you don't have to be a current Aira explorer
to access that material.
It's just available in DAISY, MP3
and online at aira.io/training.
Great, and what about for people
who wanna know what's going on in your world
in particular, where can people catch up with you?
Well, these days probably email is the best.
I'm hosting Aira's podcast, which is called Airacast,
and that's available wherever good podcasts are had.
But you can also email me, I'm Jonathan.moen@aira.io
and I'd be happy to answer any questions.
How about Twitter or other social media?
Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot about that.
Yeah, I'm JonathanMosen on Twitter, all joined together
and I'm back on Facebook now
because there was too much going on
with Aira for me not to be, unfortunately.
So I'm also on Facebook.
(both laughing)
Excellent, well, I wanna thank you so much
for spending time with us today,
and I really appreciate the conversation.
It's been wonderful.
It's been great talking with you, Ricky.
I don't think we've ever done this before on any podcast,
so it's great to talk to you at last.
Yeah, we'll have to do it again.
Yeah, I'd love to.
Fantastic. Thanks for joining us.
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