WEBVTT

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(gentle music)

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Welcome to Hadley Presents.

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I'm your host, Ricky Enger,

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inviting you to sit back, relax,

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and enjoy a conversation with the experts.

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In this episode, guest Michael Nye joins us

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to discuss his photography and audio exhibition,

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My Heart is Not Blind.

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Welcome to the show, Michael.

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Thank you, Ricky.

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Thank you for inviting me on your podcast.

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So great to have you.

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So great to learn about what you do,

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which is really, really fascinating.

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And I have, you know,

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I have to admit that I didn't know until recently.

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And so, once I found out,

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I'm really excited to share that with our audience as well,

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'cause you've done some amazing things.

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So, before we talk about one specific project

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that you've done, why don't you just give a brief intro?

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Tell us a bit about yourself, who you are, what you do?

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For the last 40 years,

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I've been really interested in philosophy.

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I've been interested in photography.

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I've been interested in the nature of storytelling

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and how powerful that can be.

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How stories are the threads that bind us together.

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I think all of my projects

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have been about wanting to know more.

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A desire to understand communities,

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people, places, ideas unlike my own.

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And with photography, you know, I went into wars by myself.

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I went into Siberia over the Bering Strait

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in the middle of a winter

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and live with Chichi natives and Russian soldiers,

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refugee camps in the Middle East, Palestinian refugee camps.

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I put my finger on a map in China

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and went there for a month back in the early '90s.

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So, a lots of projects,

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and I use this old box cameras called Deardorff.

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It's an 8 by 10 view camera.

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And it's the kind that Mathew Brady used

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during the Civil War.

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It's like it has an accordion to it.

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There's no batteries, nothing moves,

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and you use film plates.

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And so, if I go out photographing, for an example,

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I may have 12 sheets of film, and that's it for that day.

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So, you have to be careful,

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and you have to think about what you're doing.

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I think every person,

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every place is a map to somewhere else.

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We're all connected.

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I think that philosophy

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really does show through in your work,

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and you've tackled a really wide variety of subjects,

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and many of which people would shy away

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from really approaching.

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So, you've done things on hunger.

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You've done things on mental illness, teen pregnancy,

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just to name a few.

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You have done the project

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that we're here to talk about today,

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which is My Heart is Not Blind.

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And just having people who are blind

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or low vision sort of share their stories.

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And you've made an exhibition out of that.

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What was the reason

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for your choosing this project in particular?

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What inspired you to do that?

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This project is two things.

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It's a book that's published by Trinity University Press,

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and it came out when the show first opened,

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and it's also a traveling exhibition.

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It opened at the Witte Museum in San Antonio.

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It's a huge museum, and over 20,000 people went in.

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And so, you can imagine

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there's 50 large black and white portraits,

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silver-printed in a dark room.

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And next to each portrait is an audio box with headphones.

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And so, anyone in the community going into the museum

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would put on the headphones,

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and that person is speaking in their own voice

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about their life,

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not just about blindness or visual impairment,

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but about, you know,

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all the things that we all have in common.

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I think the project, now looking back,

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is totally about understanding.

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It's about the nature and ambiguity of blindness,

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about the nature of perception,

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which is such a mystery.

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A major part of the exhibit is about human adaptation

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for anyone, blind or sighted.

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About the brain's ability to rewire itself

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to favor non-visual thinking.

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It's about our shared humanity, our shared fragility,

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what we have in common.

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I love working slowly on a project

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and working with that person.

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And each person had ability

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to make sure they approved everything that I did,

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both the text and the audio.

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Gosh, I met so many friends,

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and what a privilege it was to be a listener,

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to listen and learn from someone else.

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Yeah, and I think it's so incredibly important

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that you allowed them to not only tell their stories

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but to make sure that those stories really were represented

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in a way that was comfortable for them.

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And that sort of met what you had set out to do as well.

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And so, it was such a collaborative project.

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Did you go into this with sort of something in mind

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and you had a vision as to how this would all play out

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in the story that you wanted to tell,

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and maybe you had some preconceptions

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before you got started?

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Did any of those things,

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were things a lot different than you expected

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or were some things reinforced

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what you actually already felt,

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or maybe a combination of both?

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Yes, to everything you said.

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Backing up just a moment, almost 30 years ago,

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I was invited on Arts America Tour in Southeast Asia

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to exhibit photographs

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and to give the talk about photography and aesthetics.

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And this curator in Riyadh,

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the capital of Saudi Arabia, said,

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"Would you give a gallery talk

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to some international blind students?"

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I didn't think anything about it,

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but what I remember,

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and I will never forget was their attention,

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their gaze, their intense listening, their curiosity,

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a whisper seemed like it would travel far.

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And I remember talking about how light is different

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in the morning versus the evenings, how it changes.

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I talked about that a black and white photograph

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can be aesthetically beautiful,

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the way it's black and grays and whites are arranged.

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And then they started asking me questions,

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and they were really fundamental questions,

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profound, simple, philosophical questions.

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"Why are you a photographer? What's black and white?

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What's a beautiful if it's nonvisual?

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What's the meaning of these photographs?

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The photographs represent reality.

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How does anyone blind, or sighted,

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or visually impaired

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understand the world outside themselves?"

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And I think at that very moment, we switched places.

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They were giving the gallery talk,

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and I was a student listening and learning from them.

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This reminded me of Immanuel Kant,

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the philosopher, 18th century,

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that asked four fundamental questions.

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"What they were doing? What did we do in our lives?

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What can we know? What's the limits and extent of knowledge?

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What do we all have in common?

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And what can we expect from the future?"

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And that's exactly what they were asking.

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When I came back to San Antonio, this was some 30 years ago.

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I came back to San Antonio.

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I brought six people that were visually impaired or blind

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and then six artists together,

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no one teaching anyone anything.

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Just to talk about perception.

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Perceptions, not vision.

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Perception is everything,

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you know, awareness, metaphor, intuition.

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And we went around the room,

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and everyone came away with a larger vocabulary.

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Everyone just was so moved

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by listening to other people's experience.

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So I just said,

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"Someday I would like to spend a lot of time

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listening to people around this country

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that have some vision loss or blindness."

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I was interested in what I could learn from them.

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So I wasn't trying to do anything

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except have a fidelity to each persons experience.

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To try to be true

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in the sense of what I'm editing and putting forth.

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And that's why I work closely with each individual.

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So I didn't have any preconceptions

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other than I just thought it would be incredible

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to have these deep and meaningful conversations.

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That is so awesome.

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Because if you go into tell a story,

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you're already shaping it, right?

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You already have something in mind that you want to tell,

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and you're using a narrative to sort of fit that.

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And so I love that you went in to learn,

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and in the process of doing that,

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you just happened to allow people to tell their stories,

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and it was shaped into what you have now

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for this exhibition.

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When you worked with people,

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how did you decide who to approach,

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and what was their general feeling

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about being involved in this?

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And since it is such a collaborative thing,

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I would imagine that you changed yourself,

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and they probably did as well,

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just sort of in the journey of creating this.

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Can you talk a little about that?

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It had one criteria.

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I wasn't looking for success stories, failure stories,

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tragic stories, happy stories.

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My only criteria was, would you spend three days with me?

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But it surprised me

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on how many different causes of vision loss that people.

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I mean, I never recognized

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that there was almost 50 people in the exhibit,

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and I probably had 24 different varieties

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of vision loss or blindness.

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You know, my questions were about blindness

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and visual impairments,

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but it's also about being a human being.

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You know, what's your family's history?

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What are you thinking about?

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What do you hope for?

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And I think people that participated saw the seriousness

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and really jumped in

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and used their voice in a courageous, vulnerable way,

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which is never, which is not that easy all the time.

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But I think it's,

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if you spend two days, three days, four days,

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sometimes I spend a week with someone,

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it changes, you know?

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It changes the way the questions,

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it changes the listening.

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Question and answer is a dialectical process.

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You don't know where it's going when you start.

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It's gonna end up somewhere very far from where you started.

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Absolutely.

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And so when all of this was done,

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and it certainly did not happen overnight,

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but when you created this, you know, you have a book,

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you have a traveling exhibition,

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which I am certainly curious about how that works,

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and we'll get to that a bit later.

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In any case,

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you have a lot of these people experiencing the work

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that you've put together.

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Some of them are cited,

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and they've never thought about a blind person before,

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beyond just the word blind and what that might mean.

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Some of them are friends and family of blind

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or low vision people,

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and some of them are blind or low vision themselves.

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And so I'm kind of fascinated to know,

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in as much as you've been able to observe this,

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how were people's reactions different

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just depending on the perspective

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that they were experiencing this from?

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Well, several answers to that.

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One is, you know, from a sighted point of view,

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I've worked on a project on young parents, ages 12 to 100,

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everyone, men and women.

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And that exhibit's probably gone to over a hundred cities.

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Then I did a project on mental illness,

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four years on that project, and it's gone to over 60 cities.

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Then went on hunger in America,

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which is not about poverty but hunger.

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Someone could have been hungry as a child,

269
00:11:57.930 --> 00:12:00.900
but not as an adult, that's gone to over 50 cities.

270
00:12:00.900 --> 00:12:02.670
This is the fourth big project.

271
00:12:02.670 --> 00:12:06.540
And I think this project there's more discrimination,

272
00:12:06.540 --> 00:12:07.830
more misunderstanding.

273
00:12:07.830 --> 00:12:10.200
I never thought that was possible.

274
00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:12.720
When I took the book to Trinity University Press,

275
00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:16.710
great press, but they have a group of readers.

276
00:12:16.710 --> 00:12:18.930
They give their opinion about the book,

277
00:12:18.930 --> 00:12:23.040
and they're usually PhDs, highly educated.

278
00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:25.200
And this is what they said, Ricky.

279
00:12:25.200 --> 00:12:28.380
One person said, "I found these narratives from the blind

280
00:12:28.380 --> 00:12:30.390
and visually impaired to be so articulate.

281
00:12:30.390 --> 00:12:33.510
I questioned whether these stories are really the sentences

282
00:12:33.510 --> 00:12:36.270
spoke by the blind participants."

283
00:12:36.270 --> 00:12:37.807
And then another one was,

284
00:12:37.807 --> 00:12:40.740
"Would each of these participants recognize these words

285
00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:42.930
as something they actually said?"

286
00:12:42.930 --> 00:12:47.930
And so your question about the misunderstanding is profound.

287
00:12:49.350 --> 00:12:53.490
That someone visual, if they imagine themselves blind,

288
00:12:53.490 --> 00:12:54.750
of course at that moment,

289
00:12:54.750 --> 00:12:55.650
they're not going to be able to do

290
00:12:55.650 --> 00:12:56.610
all the things they're doing,

291
00:12:56.610 --> 00:12:59.340
but they're not looking at adaptation.

292
00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:01.650
How the brain, that you can learn all these things,

293
00:13:01.650 --> 00:13:05.370
you can live a perfectly normal life,

294
00:13:05.370 --> 00:13:08.250
an extraordinary life, or whatever life you want.

295
00:13:08.250 --> 00:13:12.780
If you learn the skills, if you adapt, it takes time.

296
00:13:12.780 --> 00:13:14.190
It's hard.

297
00:13:14.190 --> 00:13:16.560
You know, I interviewed Michael Hingson,

298
00:13:16.560 --> 00:13:19.200
you know, he was on the 78th floor of Tower One

299
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:20.520
when the first plane struck,

300
00:13:20.520 --> 00:13:24.540
and he knew exactly how many steps from the 78th floor

301
00:13:24.540 --> 00:13:26.160
to the lobby.

302
00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:28.530
Probably most people that are blind wouldn't know that,

303
00:13:28.530 --> 00:13:29.520
but he did.

304
00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:30.900
But he says the biggest problem,

305
00:13:30.900 --> 00:13:32.790
and almost everyone I interviewed

306
00:13:32.790 --> 00:13:35.910
in one way or the other said, "It's not blindness.

307
00:13:35.910 --> 00:13:36.750
Maybe it is,

308
00:13:36.750 --> 00:13:40.620
but it's also what sighted people think about blindness.

309
00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:43.650
They just don't get you can adapt."

310
00:13:43.650 --> 00:13:46.200
You know, a lot of people that are blind are very visual.

311
00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:47.940
I mean, you don't lose your visual memory

312
00:13:47.940 --> 00:13:50.580
if you were sighted as a child,

313
00:13:50.580 --> 00:13:52.440
and they visualize everything they do.

314
00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:54.900
So everyone is so different.

315
00:13:54.900 --> 00:13:56.730
I mean, being blind as a child

316
00:13:56.730 --> 00:13:59.370
is so different than being blind at 70,

317
00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:02.820
or being blind in a second, car wreck, aneurysm

318
00:14:02.820 --> 00:14:05.310
is different than having retinitis pigmentosa,

319
00:14:05.310 --> 00:14:08.430
or cone-rod dystrophy, or whatever.

320
00:14:08.430 --> 00:14:10.950
And having parents or family that supports you

321
00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:13.830
is so different than if you don't have that, you know?

322
00:14:13.830 --> 00:14:14.970
And visual impairment

323
00:14:14.970 --> 00:14:17.070
is like you're between these two worlds

324
00:14:17.070 --> 00:14:20.610
of not completely blind, but not completely sighted.

325
00:14:20.610 --> 00:14:25.590
So, you know, it's a big issue on discrimination.

326
00:14:25.590 --> 00:14:27.990
That's a big one, and that's a hard one.

327
00:14:27.990 --> 00:14:32.490
And it's a fight that I'm in whenever I speak to groups

328
00:14:32.490 --> 00:14:35.250
or have my exhibits, because I always give lectures.

329
00:14:35.250 --> 00:14:37.500
You know, I hit that one as hard as I can

330
00:14:37.500 --> 00:14:39.630
because it's a lot of ignorance.

331
00:14:39.630 --> 00:14:42.900
When the exhibit was opening at the Witte Museum,

332
00:14:42.900 --> 00:14:44.760
I was at another gallery opening,

333
00:14:44.760 --> 00:14:47.160
and this woman said, "Michael, what are you working on?"

334
00:14:47.160 --> 00:14:48.360
I said, "I'm working on a project

335
00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.230
on blindness visual impairment about adaptation perception,

336
00:14:52.230 --> 00:14:54.030
mostly about perception."

337
00:14:54.030 --> 00:14:57.090
And the woman said, "I'd rather kill myself than go blind."

338
00:14:57.090 --> 00:14:58.980
She said that without a hesitation

339
00:14:58.980 --> 00:15:02.700
and without any kind of reflection about it.

340
00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:05.250
And I think in all the interviews that I've done,

341
00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:07.620
I asked maybe one question,

342
00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:09.840
probably the only question I asked everyone,

343
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:11.760
what is blindness not?

344
00:15:11.760 --> 00:15:13.057
But some of the answers I got,

345
00:15:13.057 --> 00:15:14.850
"It's not akin to death.

346
00:15:14.850 --> 00:15:17.250
It's not like being buried alive.

347
00:15:17.250 --> 00:15:19.350
It's not blackness or darkness forever.

348
00:15:19.350 --> 00:15:21.870
It's not fear. It doesn't break you.

349
00:15:21.870 --> 00:15:23.910
It's not a life of misery.

350
00:15:23.910 --> 00:15:26.940
It's not the end of the world or the end of one's life.

351
00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:28.860
It doesn't define me.

352
00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:31.410
A characteristic, but it doesn't define me.

353
00:15:31.410 --> 00:15:33.300
It's not the last act.

354
00:15:33.300 --> 00:15:36.000
It's not a door that's locked."

355
00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:39.360
That list can go on for 25 pages.

356
00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:42.510
But it is about what we have in common,

357
00:15:42.510 --> 00:15:46.410
and about possibilities, and about the change in attention,

358
00:15:46.410 --> 00:15:50.160
and it's about justice, it's about fairness.

359
00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:52.607
You know, it's about a lot of those things, I think.

360
00:15:52.607 --> 00:15:56.700
And I think that is really, really well portrayed

361
00:15:56.700 --> 00:15:59.010
in what you've done.

362
00:15:59.010 --> 00:16:02.460
It's because you did talk to so many people

363
00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:04.950
who shared their experiences,

364
00:16:04.950 --> 00:16:07.920
and you put those together in a way

365
00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:11.700
that I hope will be educational for people

366
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:16.700
because it was very powerful for me, even as a blind person,

367
00:16:17.850 --> 00:16:22.850
just kind of listening to my own community tell its story,

368
00:16:22.980 --> 00:16:25.020
knowing that there would be people out there

369
00:16:25.020 --> 00:16:28.560
who had a number of misconceptions about blindness.

370
00:16:28.560 --> 00:16:30.540
And, you know, our hope certainly is

371
00:16:30.540 --> 00:16:33.330
that experiencing this exhibition

372
00:16:33.330 --> 00:16:35.250
in whatever way that they can,

373
00:16:35.250 --> 00:16:37.650
can address some of those things

374
00:16:37.650 --> 00:16:41.310
and really break through that narrow mindset.

375
00:16:41.310 --> 00:16:44.940
Speaking of experiencing the exhibition,

376
00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:46.800
how can people do that?

377
00:16:46.800 --> 00:16:48.000
Because you've talked about a book,

378
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:51.840
you've talked about it has traveled to multiple cities,

379
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:53.910
and I would suspect that the pandemic

380
00:16:53.910 --> 00:16:56.730
has changed a little bit in that respect.

381
00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:01.530
I know that there are parts of it available on the website.

382
00:17:01.530 --> 00:17:05.280
So just talk about how people can then go

383
00:17:05.280 --> 00:17:07.290
and find what you've done

384
00:17:07.290 --> 00:17:09.690
and check out this and other projects.

385
00:17:09.690 --> 00:17:11.250
The audio exhibition,

386
00:17:11.250 --> 00:17:14.700
the traveling exhibition stopped with COVID.

387
00:17:14.700 --> 00:17:16.560
So it'll start up again,

388
00:17:16.560 --> 00:17:18.600
but there's no place right now

389
00:17:18.600 --> 00:17:20.880
where all the stories are available.

390
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.320
The book's available,

391
00:17:22.320 --> 00:17:25.680
but I will hope to have all the audio stories available

392
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:27.480
at some point.

393
00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.030
You know, it's so different listening to someone

394
00:17:30.030 --> 00:17:31.500
talk about their own lives

395
00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:33.450
versus reading about someone's life.

396
00:17:33.450 --> 00:17:36.200
I mean, they both have a strength and a weakness to it.

397
00:17:37.080 --> 00:17:39.780
You know, for an example, just come to mind.

398
00:17:39.780 --> 00:17:43.380
I interviewed, do you know Olivia Chavez from El Paso?

399
00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:44.213
I don't,

400
00:17:44.213 --> 00:17:48.030
but I did hear just a brief bit of her story from your site.

401
00:17:48.030 --> 00:17:50.910
So those are all excerpts on my website,

402
00:17:50.910 --> 00:17:52.537
but one thing she said,

403
00:17:52.537 --> 00:17:54.270
"My mother tells me shortly

404
00:17:54.270 --> 00:17:55.950
after I came home from the hospital

405
00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:59.400
and my eyes were bandaged, my mother never hid me.

406
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:00.630
She would take me to the store,

407
00:18:00.630 --> 00:18:03.450
and people would ask, 'What's wrong with your daughter?

408
00:18:03.450 --> 00:18:05.490
Why are her eyes bandages? What happened?'

409
00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:08.880
She would explain that I had cancer and had to have surgery,

410
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:10.350
had to have my eyes removed.

411
00:18:10.350 --> 00:18:12.960
They would say, 'You must have done something wrong.

412
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:14.430
God punished you.'

413
00:18:14.430 --> 00:18:16.620
Or they would say, 'Well, she had cancer.

414
00:18:16.620 --> 00:18:18.630
Why didn't you just let her die?

415
00:18:18.630 --> 00:18:20.850
How's she going to live this way?'

416
00:18:20.850 --> 00:18:24.240
My mother would have used some expletives not to be repeated

417
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:27.720
and tell them to leave her alone and go away."

418
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.960
And then what I loved what Olivia did,

419
00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:33.240
she took a trip to the Grand Canyon,

420
00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:36.997
and this is just maybe six lines from that.

421
00:18:36.997 --> 00:18:41.490
"I remember so much about it in terms of the weather.

422
00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:44.550
We had sun a bit, and we had some extreme cold.

423
00:18:44.550 --> 00:18:46.620
It was such a peaceful feeling.

424
00:18:46.620 --> 00:18:49.380
Standing at the rim, I could feel the vastness,

425
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:51.510
the enormity of the canyon.

426
00:18:51.510 --> 00:18:53.490
Even with the breeze, it was quiet.

427
00:18:53.490 --> 00:18:56.220
Something came over me, I felt a chill.

428
00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:59.010
I was even shaky, but not scared.

429
00:18:59.010 --> 00:19:01.500
It struck me as a spiritual feeling.

430
00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:03.270
I don't know if it's the same feeling

431
00:19:03.270 --> 00:19:05.160
that someone has who can see,

432
00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:06.990
but that's how I felt.

433
00:19:06.990 --> 00:19:09.660
I felt small."

434
00:19:09.660 --> 00:19:12.540
What a beautiful thing to say and to think about.

435
00:19:12.540 --> 00:19:14.580
Absolutely. I totally agree.

436
00:19:14.580 --> 00:19:19.580
And her story is just one of many that are shared.

437
00:19:20.268 --> 00:19:23.070
Certainly, you have excerpts on the website

438
00:19:23.070 --> 00:19:24.990
and that's MichaelNye.org.

439
00:19:24.990 --> 00:19:27.030
We'll have that in the show notes

440
00:19:27.030 --> 00:19:30.540
and hopefully when things are available again,

441
00:19:30.540 --> 00:19:33.840
and people can travel, the exhibition can too.

442
00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:37.710
But in the meantime, what comes next for you?

443
00:19:37.710 --> 00:19:40.320
And do you ever revisit those people

444
00:19:40.320 --> 00:19:43.950
that you spent some time with telling their stories?

445
00:19:43.950 --> 00:19:48.950
Is there more to say in that exhibition or what comes next?

446
00:19:50.550 --> 00:19:53.130
I didn't want to stop after seven years.

447
00:19:53.130 --> 00:19:56.280
I really loved the process.

448
00:19:56.280 --> 00:20:00.210
I have so many friends from those seven years,

449
00:20:00.210 --> 00:20:02.400
and I'm in contact with many, many.

450
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:06.570
I think maybe 30 came to the opening around the country.

451
00:20:06.570 --> 00:20:10.200
One flew in from Hawaii and all over the country,

452
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:13.500
they came into the opening, which was beautiful.

453
00:20:13.500 --> 00:20:15.930
I'm working now on an essay project.

454
00:20:15.930 --> 00:20:20.930
I did 27 series of photographs between '88 and 2000,

455
00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:25.890
short series of photographs.

456
00:20:25.890 --> 00:20:30.196
And I wrote an essay on each one and so I finished that.

457
00:20:30.196 --> 00:20:32.430
And so I'm rewriting right now.

458
00:20:32.430 --> 00:20:34.560
So hopefully that'll be a book,

459
00:20:34.560 --> 00:20:38.970
and I'm trying to be an advocate for fairness.

460
00:20:38.970 --> 00:20:40.710
We very much appreciate that.

461
00:20:40.710 --> 00:20:43.590
And there's a lot of work to do, certainly,

462
00:20:43.590 --> 00:20:46.860
but as we approach it with passion and again,

463
00:20:46.860 --> 00:20:50.100
just recognizing everyone's humanity

464
00:20:50.100 --> 00:20:53.400
and helping other people to recognize that as well

465
00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:58.320
can really go quite a long way to making things better.

466
00:20:58.320 --> 00:21:00.450
Michael, I want to thank you so, so much

467
00:21:00.450 --> 00:21:01.860
for joining us today.

468
00:21:01.860 --> 00:21:02.790
Is there anything else

469
00:21:02.790 --> 00:21:05.460
that you would like to leave the listeners with

470
00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:06.840
before we wrap up?

471
00:21:06.840 --> 00:21:07.673
I just really appreciate your questions

472
00:21:07.673 --> 00:21:08.506
and your podcast.

473
00:21:12.750 --> 00:21:16.350
I'm going to go online this week and listen to others,

474
00:21:16.350 --> 00:21:18.660
and thank you so much for including me.

475
00:21:18.660 --> 00:21:20.280
I really appreciate that.

476
00:21:20.280 --> 00:21:23.310
Absolutely. Thanks for spending time with us.

477
00:21:23.310 --> 00:21:24.990
Got something to say?

478
00:21:24.990 --> 00:21:28.740
Share your thoughts about this episode of Hadley Presents

479
00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:31.560
or make suggestions for future episodes.

480
00:21:31.560 --> 00:21:33.330
We'd love to hear from you.

481
00:21:33.330 --> 00:21:37.770
Send us an email at podcast@hadley.edu.

482
00:21:37.770 --> 00:21:42.770
That's P-O-D-C-A-S-T@hadley.edu.

483
00:21:42.840 --> 00:21:47.550
Or leave us a message at 847-784-2870.

484
00:21:49.650 --> 00:21:51.201
Thanks for listening.

485
00:21:51.201 --> 00:21:53.784
(gentle music)