WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.530 --> 00:00:03.113 (bright music) 2 00:00:04.050 --> 00:00:06.150 Welcome to "Hadley Presents." 3 00:00:06.150 --> 00:00:10.470 I'm your host, Ricky Enger, inviting you to sit back, relax, 4 00:00:10.470 --> 00:00:13.320 and enjoy a conversation with the experts. 5 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:16.770 In this episode, Hadley learner, Mark Andrews, 6 00:00:16.770 --> 00:00:20.100 and Co-Director of Research and Development, Kim Walker, 7 00:00:20.100 --> 00:00:22.920 join us to discuss braille for everyday use. 8 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:24.810 Welcome to the show, both of you. 9 00:00:24.810 --> 00:00:25.643 Thanks, Ricky. 10 00:00:25.643 --> 00:00:26.550 Thank you. 11 00:00:26.550 --> 00:00:28.560 It is so good to have you here, 12 00:00:28.560 --> 00:00:31.380 and I am delighted to have the chance 13 00:00:31.380 --> 00:00:33.210 to talk about this project, 14 00:00:33.210 --> 00:00:36.946 which I think literally every person at Hadley 15 00:00:36.946 --> 00:00:40.620 has had a hand in in some way or another, 16 00:00:40.620 --> 00:00:44.340 which is pretty appropriate considering where we came from 17 00:00:44.340 --> 00:00:45.810 and why we're here in the first place. 18 00:00:45.810 --> 00:00:49.080 So yeah, looking forward to talking about that. 19 00:00:49.080 --> 00:00:50.421 But before we do, 20 00:00:50.421 --> 00:00:53.460 why don't we just get a quick intro from each of you? 21 00:00:53.460 --> 00:00:55.740 Kim, we'll have you go first. 22 00:00:55.740 --> 00:00:57.840 I'm Kim Walker, and as Ricky mentioned, 23 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:00.966 I am part of the research and development team at Hadley. 24 00:01:00.966 --> 00:01:05.577 I've been in the field of vision for over 30 years now, 25 00:01:05.577 --> 00:01:09.900 taught children braille, adults braille, and love braille. 26 00:01:09.900 --> 00:01:13.560 My whole being and whole career is about braille. 27 00:01:13.560 --> 00:01:14.550 Love it. 28 00:01:14.550 --> 00:01:16.830 Anyone who has a passion for braille 29 00:01:16.830 --> 00:01:21.240 is certainly welcome on the show anytime. 30 00:01:21.240 --> 00:01:22.770 Mark, how about you? 31 00:01:22.770 --> 00:01:24.720 Tell us a bit about yourself. 32 00:01:24.720 --> 00:01:25.553 I used to teach photography and I used to 33 00:01:25.553 --> 00:01:26.386 drive a truck. 34 00:01:30.300 --> 00:01:33.750 Let's see. Undergraduate, I would read for the blind. 35 00:01:33.750 --> 00:01:34.590 Wow. 36 00:01:34.590 --> 00:01:38.310 So you had a connection with the blind 37 00:01:38.310 --> 00:01:42.750 well before you had a more personal experience with that. 38 00:01:42.750 --> 00:01:44.160 That's true. 39 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:48.839 I'm not fully dark. I have low vision. 40 00:01:48.839 --> 00:01:51.870 I am unable to drive any longer. 41 00:01:51.870 --> 00:01:55.950 I am, however, able to navigate, for example, 42 00:01:55.950 --> 00:01:59.610 I can walk into town and do grocery shopping. 43 00:01:59.610 --> 00:02:01.260 It's a little different for me. 44 00:02:01.260 --> 00:02:04.470 I use my earbuds and Seeing AI 45 00:02:04.470 --> 00:02:09.390 and it reads me the prices of things and I can get home. 46 00:02:09.390 --> 00:02:12.210 Fantastic. It's great to have you here. 47 00:02:12.210 --> 00:02:15.240 And yeah, thanks so much for that intro 48 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:17.640 and thanks for being here. 49 00:02:17.640 --> 00:02:21.090 As I sort of alluded to in the introduction here, 50 00:02:21.090 --> 00:02:23.580 we're going to be talking about 51 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:26.940 Hadley's Braille for Everyday Use. 52 00:02:26.940 --> 00:02:31.170 It's interesting because Hadley has always been known, 53 00:02:31.170 --> 00:02:33.265 I mean, literally for a hundred years, 54 00:02:33.265 --> 00:02:36.300 we've been known for teaching braille. 55 00:02:36.300 --> 00:02:40.500 So it's been at the core of what Hadley does. 56 00:02:40.500 --> 00:02:45.000 Taking a look at how we deliver braille 57 00:02:45.000 --> 00:02:46.770 and how we teach braille, 58 00:02:46.770 --> 00:02:50.220 making any changes to that is not a decision 59 00:02:50.220 --> 00:02:51.930 that would be made lightly, I think. 60 00:02:51.930 --> 00:02:56.430 So what was the thought process behind reexamining that? 61 00:02:56.430 --> 00:02:59.070 Hadley truly has been known for teaching braille 62 00:02:59.070 --> 00:03:01.200 for over 100 years. 63 00:03:01.200 --> 00:03:04.050 And you know, when William Hadley started Braille 64 00:03:04.050 --> 00:03:06.120 at the time, Braille by Mail, 65 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:09.840 that had to be very revolutionary and unheard of. 66 00:03:09.840 --> 00:03:12.510 And I'm sure there were some skeptics. 67 00:03:12.510 --> 00:03:16.290 So we feel like this new approach to teaching braille 68 00:03:16.290 --> 00:03:18.300 is just as revolutionary. 69 00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:22.890 We were having some dropout rates and wondering, you know, 70 00:03:22.890 --> 00:03:25.680 why weren't people completing our courses? 71 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:27.107 We were seeing people come in. 72 00:03:27.107 --> 00:03:30.210 Sometimes they would start the course, 73 00:03:30.210 --> 00:03:32.550 maybe get a few lessons in, and stop. 74 00:03:32.550 --> 00:03:37.140 Sometimes they would get the material and never even start. 75 00:03:37.140 --> 00:03:39.937 We went directly to our learners and said, 76 00:03:39.937 --> 00:03:41.910 "Hey, you know, what's going on? 77 00:03:41.910 --> 00:03:45.540 What did you feel about these courses?" 78 00:03:45.540 --> 00:03:48.600 And we heard some very distinctive things, 79 00:03:48.600 --> 00:03:50.105 and we heard something like, 80 00:03:50.105 --> 00:03:52.680 "Well, you know, I'm overwhelmed. 81 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.860 There's so much here. I don't know where to start. 82 00:03:55.860 --> 00:03:58.020 I feel like I'm learning alone." 83 00:03:58.020 --> 00:03:59.700 And then when they found out 84 00:03:59.700 --> 00:04:01.524 that they were gonna need to take a test 85 00:04:01.524 --> 00:04:04.701 and they would need to turn an assignment in, 86 00:04:04.701 --> 00:04:06.337 they just simply said, 87 00:04:06.337 --> 00:04:10.980 "That just does not fit into my life at this time." 88 00:04:10.980 --> 00:04:14.220 And another component was sometimes they would have 89 00:04:14.220 --> 00:04:16.860 an NLS player to play the cartridge on, 90 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:18.330 and sometimes they had one 91 00:04:18.330 --> 00:04:22.110 and had no clue about how to work it. 92 00:04:22.110 --> 00:04:24.660 And they felt like they were just alone. 93 00:04:24.660 --> 00:04:27.360 Thinking about that, that's certainly not the way 94 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.990 we wanted to be presenting our braille courses. 95 00:04:30.990 --> 00:04:33.780 That really started our research, you know, 96 00:04:33.780 --> 00:04:36.480 looking at how does the adult population 97 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:38.100 learn to read braille? 98 00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:41.190 Yeah, 'cause I would imagine it's a lot different 99 00:04:41.190 --> 00:04:42.780 for somebody who's an adult 100 00:04:42.780 --> 00:04:45.750 than it is for a school-aged child 101 00:04:45.750 --> 00:04:48.450 learning the literacy for the first time. 102 00:04:48.450 --> 00:04:49.283 If you're an adult, 103 00:04:49.283 --> 00:04:51.762 maybe that's not where you're starting, right? 104 00:04:51.762 --> 00:04:52.595 Absolutely. And you know, I taught c 105 00:04:52.595 --> 00:04:53.428 hildren for years. 106 00:04:54.427 --> 00:04:57.240 You know, we're building those reading skills. 107 00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.279 But when we were looking at our adult learner, 108 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.230 they already know how to read. 109 00:05:01.230 --> 00:05:03.720 They have that prior knowledge of reading. 110 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:06.930 They know the letters, they know the sounds of letters, 111 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:08.160 they know words. 112 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:12.000 How could we approach it from that prior knowledge 113 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.830 of our adult learners? 114 00:05:13.830 --> 00:05:16.050 Of course, our content is always based on 115 00:05:16.050 --> 00:05:18.000 sound, research-based methodology. 116 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:20.370 You know, what is the best practice in teaching? 117 00:05:20.370 --> 00:05:22.230 What does this adult learner want? 118 00:05:22.230 --> 00:05:23.970 You know, I want it quickly. 119 00:05:23.970 --> 00:05:26.460 I want small chunks of learning. 120 00:05:26.460 --> 00:05:28.770 I want to be able to use it as soon as I do it. 121 00:05:28.770 --> 00:05:33.180 I don't want it to feel like it's I'm reading a book 122 00:05:33.180 --> 00:05:36.810 and I'm having to learn on my own and it's boring. 123 00:05:36.810 --> 00:05:38.380 So we looked at those things 124 00:05:38.380 --> 00:05:41.790 and took a truly different approach. 125 00:05:41.790 --> 00:05:42.780 That makes a lot of sense. 126 00:05:42.780 --> 00:05:45.330 And you just made me think about something, actually, 127 00:05:45.330 --> 00:05:48.270 when you mentioned reading a book or looking at a book 128 00:05:48.270 --> 00:05:52.140 to try and get through how to learn braille. 129 00:05:52.140 --> 00:05:54.150 But that got me thinking about 130 00:05:54.150 --> 00:05:57.403 why adults might learn braille. 131 00:05:57.403 --> 00:06:00.510 I would imagine that reading a book or a magazine 132 00:06:00.510 --> 00:06:01.343 is part of it, 133 00:06:01.343 --> 00:06:06.120 but maybe that's not the motivation factor for everybody, 134 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:07.443 at least initially. 135 00:06:07.443 --> 00:06:09.330 Mark, what was it for you? 136 00:06:09.330 --> 00:06:14.220 What made you even consider taking a look at braille? 137 00:06:14.220 --> 00:06:16.643 I am not stationary. 138 00:06:16.643 --> 00:06:18.861 I'm not stuck in the house. 139 00:06:18.861 --> 00:06:23.861 I go to doctor's offices, I go to various places, 140 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:29.600 and frequently I can't read the signs. 141 00:06:29.638 --> 00:06:33.060 But there is braille there, like in an elevator. 142 00:06:33.060 --> 00:06:36.660 In an elevator, there doesn't seem to be a standard. 143 00:06:36.660 --> 00:06:39.060 The numbers don't always go left to right. 144 00:06:39.060 --> 00:06:41.400 Sometimes they go vertically. 145 00:06:41.400 --> 00:06:46.400 So I can't get the little color numeral every time. 146 00:06:46.890 --> 00:06:49.770 So if I can feel it, it's helpful. 147 00:06:49.770 --> 00:06:54.450 Doctors' offices have placards outside with the name, 148 00:06:54.450 --> 00:06:57.750 but again, sometimes it's not really, 149 00:06:57.750 --> 00:07:00.184 without shoving my face into the wall, 150 00:07:00.184 --> 00:07:03.870 I can't really be sure of where I'm going. 151 00:07:03.870 --> 00:07:05.573 And that's a, you know, 152 00:07:05.573 --> 00:07:08.400 braille would be a big help for that. 153 00:07:08.400 --> 00:07:10.650 That's an awesome practical example 154 00:07:10.650 --> 00:07:12.030 of something that you would do. 155 00:07:12.030 --> 00:07:15.090 It doesn't have anything to do with reading literature, 156 00:07:15.090 --> 00:07:16.800 as wonderful as that is. 157 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:20.588 It's something that you could find use for immediately 158 00:07:20.588 --> 00:07:22.679 in your daily life. 159 00:07:22.679 --> 00:07:24.987 Kim, you do a lot of communication 160 00:07:24.987 --> 00:07:27.540 with our learners as well. 161 00:07:27.540 --> 00:07:29.670 Are there some other practical examples 162 00:07:29.670 --> 00:07:33.090 of why somebody might choose to learn braille? 163 00:07:33.090 --> 00:07:35.280 We heard exactly what Mark was saying. 164 00:07:35.280 --> 00:07:38.520 We heard that from other testers also. 165 00:07:38.520 --> 00:07:41.280 They're like, "Well, I really don't want to read a book. 166 00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:43.980 I want to be able to use the elevator. 167 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:45.927 I want to be able to read a menu. 168 00:07:45.927 --> 00:07:48.960 I want to be able to read room signs." 169 00:07:48.960 --> 00:07:51.060 We knew that we had some learners 170 00:07:51.060 --> 00:07:52.710 that that was their end goal. 171 00:07:52.710 --> 00:07:54.180 You know, we did look at, 172 00:07:54.180 --> 00:07:56.520 what is the end goal for this learner? 173 00:07:56.520 --> 00:07:57.690 Not that it's gonna be 174 00:07:57.690 --> 00:08:00.810 I'm gonna teach you to read a book or a magazine, 175 00:08:00.810 --> 00:08:03.962 but you're gonna be able to be very practical 176 00:08:03.962 --> 00:08:05.430 with this braille. 177 00:08:05.430 --> 00:08:09.487 So Mark hit it spot-on. We heard that so many times. 178 00:08:09.487 --> 00:08:12.960 "I just would really like to read the elevator." 179 00:08:12.960 --> 00:08:15.240 And we actually built it into our books, you know, 180 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.520 teaching an elevator panel. 181 00:08:17.520 --> 00:08:19.920 Of course, exactly what Mark said, 182 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:21.330 they're not always the same, 183 00:08:21.330 --> 00:08:23.700 but we have all of the components there 184 00:08:23.700 --> 00:08:26.039 so that someone will be able to feel that, 185 00:08:26.039 --> 00:08:28.950 learn how to scan that panel, 186 00:08:28.950 --> 00:08:31.350 and then of course, learn the braille that's on that. 187 00:08:31.350 --> 00:08:34.220 So we heard lots of reasons for braille 188 00:08:34.220 --> 00:08:36.360 as far as practical use, 189 00:08:36.360 --> 00:08:40.140 everyday usage that I can immediately use. 190 00:08:40.140 --> 00:08:42.990 What does that design look like? 191 00:08:42.990 --> 00:08:45.240 So like what's the delivery method? 192 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.030 What is somebody going to get when they start with this? 193 00:08:48.030 --> 00:08:50.400 You mentioned that we do have the adult learners. 194 00:08:50.400 --> 00:08:52.350 Something that we did find out is that 195 00:08:52.350 --> 00:08:57.350 we had over 80% of our learners had usable vision. 196 00:08:57.580 --> 00:09:01.200 So we decided to take a multimedia approach to it. 197 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:05.250 We decided to do a large print on the top of the workbook 198 00:09:05.250 --> 00:09:06.690 so that if someone had vision 199 00:09:06.690 --> 00:09:10.380 and they wanted to look how the braille cell was set up, 200 00:09:10.380 --> 00:09:14.490 how the letters are set up, what's the dot configuration, 201 00:09:14.490 --> 00:09:17.220 and then there's a middle line on the pages 202 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:19.320 and below the line it's only braille. 203 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:21.450 So we wanted to give that person a chance 204 00:09:21.450 --> 00:09:22.740 if they wanted to look at it, 205 00:09:22.740 --> 00:09:25.024 but then go below that middle line 206 00:09:25.024 --> 00:09:29.342 and have that experience of taking what you saw 207 00:09:29.342 --> 00:09:31.699 and putting it to your fingers 208 00:09:31.699 --> 00:09:33.959 and what are your fingers telling you? 209 00:09:33.959 --> 00:09:36.099 Now, we also, in the design, 210 00:09:36.099 --> 00:09:39.120 it is designed for someone who has no vision. 211 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.640 You know, some of our testers had no vision. 212 00:09:41.640 --> 00:09:44.923 They didn't use the large print. It didn't matter. 213 00:09:44.923 --> 00:09:46.800 They still had the braille. 214 00:09:46.800 --> 00:09:49.290 There is always a braille component 215 00:09:49.290 --> 00:09:51.480 in the top left corner of the page. 216 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:54.379 So we made it very easy to navigate. 217 00:09:54.379 --> 00:09:58.320 We decided to deliver some of the audio on the computer 218 00:09:58.320 --> 00:09:59.670 for those who have access. 219 00:09:59.670 --> 00:10:02.730 You can go on the computer. It will have the same page. 220 00:10:02.730 --> 00:10:04.461 It will show how you're scanning. 221 00:10:04.461 --> 00:10:07.316 And then we have telephone access 222 00:10:07.316 --> 00:10:11.719 for those who are offline and don't use the computer. 223 00:10:11.719 --> 00:10:16.650 The really cool thing about this audio delivery is, 224 00:10:16.650 --> 00:10:18.818 hey, you're on a page and you're like, oh my gosh, 225 00:10:18.818 --> 00:10:22.220 I really can't tell that D from that F. 226 00:10:22.220 --> 00:10:24.930 What do I do with that? 227 00:10:24.930 --> 00:10:26.742 Or I have a question about something. 228 00:10:26.742 --> 00:10:29.850 If you're online, you select the Help button. 229 00:10:29.850 --> 00:10:33.300 It immediately connects you to one of those braille experts 230 00:10:33.300 --> 00:10:35.879 that can help you answer any question. 231 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:39.360 And if you're on the phone, you'll just press the zero 232 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:43.440 and that will automatically take you to a braille expert 233 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:45.750 that's there to help you at any time 234 00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:47.490 to answer any questions. 235 00:10:47.490 --> 00:10:49.410 So, you know, we really thought, 236 00:10:49.410 --> 00:10:52.410 what a cool way to get immediate help, 237 00:10:52.410 --> 00:10:53.921 because in our research, 238 00:10:53.921 --> 00:10:56.960 we knew that when an adult learner's learning something new, 239 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:00.417 if they have a question, they don't want to wait a week. 240 00:11:00.417 --> 00:11:03.570 They want their question answered immediately. 241 00:11:03.570 --> 00:11:06.930 So we really like those features being built in. 242 00:11:06.930 --> 00:11:08.999 Knowing that you're developing braille 243 00:11:08.999 --> 00:11:12.776 not necessarily for school-aged kids 244 00:11:12.776 --> 00:11:17.776 and not necessarily for someone who is totally blind, 245 00:11:18.870 --> 00:11:23.870 did that alter how you approached developing the program 246 00:11:24.330 --> 00:11:26.460 that we're using now? 247 00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:27.520 Absolutely. 248 00:11:27.520 --> 00:11:32.160 Of course, we looked at those bite-size pieces of learning. 249 00:11:32.160 --> 00:11:33.840 So what we decided to do 250 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.522 is to teach three or four letters or numbers at a time 251 00:11:37.522 --> 00:11:39.900 and then give the learner a chance 252 00:11:39.900 --> 00:11:44.400 to engage with those few letters or numbers and have fun, 253 00:11:44.400 --> 00:11:45.940 sort of a game-like. 254 00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:47.919 We knew we needed to keep it simple 255 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:51.175 and to build that confidence in, 256 00:11:51.175 --> 00:11:52.987 because we heard some people say, 257 00:11:52.987 --> 00:11:54.300 "I'm afraid I can't learn it. 258 00:11:54.300 --> 00:11:57.930 I'm just so afraid it's gonna be so hard. 259 00:11:57.930 --> 00:11:59.560 Looked at braille on buildings, 260 00:11:59.560 --> 00:12:03.750 I just truly can't figure out what it is and how it works." 261 00:12:03.750 --> 00:12:05.490 We wanted to keep it simple. 262 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:08.010 We wanted to build that success in. 263 00:12:08.010 --> 00:12:12.690 And I can remember one tester started into the book, 264 00:12:12.690 --> 00:12:14.977 and she got to page five and she said, 265 00:12:14.977 --> 00:12:18.570 "Oh my gosh, I already know how to read some braille 266 00:12:18.570 --> 00:12:20.250 and I'm only on page five." 267 00:12:20.250 --> 00:12:22.638 So she was just so excited 268 00:12:22.638 --> 00:12:27.380 that she was successful from the very beginning. 269 00:12:27.380 --> 00:12:30.179 So we really wanted to build that in, 270 00:12:30.179 --> 00:12:33.120 make it very conversational. 271 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:36.030 Some people said, you know, "I felt like I was all alone. 272 00:12:36.030 --> 00:12:39.480 No one called me. I didn't have any support." 273 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.840 So we wanted to build in that conversational tone 274 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:45.300 to make it feel like someone is sitting 275 00:12:45.300 --> 00:12:48.420 beside of the learner where they're with you, 276 00:12:48.420 --> 00:12:50.190 we're teaching you the braille. 277 00:12:50.190 --> 00:12:52.662 Those were some very specific components 278 00:12:52.662 --> 00:12:55.980 that we built into this new design. 279 00:12:55.980 --> 00:12:57.840 So when you built it 280 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:01.350 and you're kind of all patting yourselves on the back 281 00:13:01.350 --> 00:13:03.358 and going, "Wow, we did great," 282 00:13:03.358 --> 00:13:06.780 I don't think it made its way out into the world just yet. 283 00:13:06.780 --> 00:13:11.780 What happened once that initial prototype was built? 284 00:13:11.790 --> 00:13:13.950 We had our best guesstimate. 285 00:13:13.950 --> 00:13:16.920 We tested it on spouses, our neighbors, you know, 286 00:13:16.920 --> 00:13:18.960 to say, does this make some sense? 287 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:20.771 Can someone navigate this? 288 00:13:20.771 --> 00:13:24.518 We put it together. We built a prototype. 289 00:13:24.518 --> 00:13:26.720 We were like, okay, we have the prototype, 290 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:31.720 we have the audio, and now we need people to test this. 291 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:35.280 And that's where Mark came in and many others. 292 00:13:35.280 --> 00:13:38.121 And it was such valuable information 293 00:13:38.121 --> 00:13:42.000 we received from the testers because we would test it, 294 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:45.930 we would take notes, we would go back, we would redesign, 295 00:13:45.930 --> 00:13:48.960 we would push it back out with the new design, 296 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.037 we would test it, we would push it back. 297 00:13:51.037 --> 00:13:54.421 Even the audio parts, we felt like we had a nice booklet 298 00:13:54.421 --> 00:13:57.417 with the braille and the presentation, 299 00:13:57.417 --> 00:14:00.690 but then how are we gonna deliver that audio? 300 00:14:00.690 --> 00:14:02.473 So we tested that. 301 00:14:02.473 --> 00:14:06.540 So those are all of the components, many, many months, 302 00:14:06.540 --> 00:14:11.040 many, many testers going in and having that experience 303 00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:12.536 and saying, "I like this. 304 00:14:12.536 --> 00:14:15.810 I don't understand this, don't like this." 305 00:14:15.810 --> 00:14:19.770 And we would always go back to the table and do a redesign. 306 00:14:19.770 --> 00:14:22.470 So that was our approach to this new design. 307 00:14:22.470 --> 00:14:25.260 Yeah, and I think it helps a lot with that feeling 308 00:14:25.260 --> 00:14:28.154 of aloneness that a lot of people had 309 00:14:28.154 --> 00:14:30.570 trying to learn braille on their own 310 00:14:30.570 --> 00:14:32.760 when you know you can reach out to somebody 311 00:14:32.760 --> 00:14:37.760 and get that help, then you're not doing it all by yourself. 312 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:42.360 So, Mark, after there were a couple of prototypes, 313 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:46.890 you were able to get a sneak peek at this project 314 00:14:46.890 --> 00:14:50.340 before it was available to everyone else. 315 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:55.340 So what did you think when you first got your braille book 316 00:14:56.400 --> 00:14:59.340 and kind of started diving into the testing? 317 00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:01.740 I thought it was amazing. 318 00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:06.390 I've never used anything like this. 319 00:15:06.390 --> 00:15:08.400 It's accessible. 320 00:15:08.400 --> 00:15:11.963 I was never stymied by any part of it. 321 00:15:11.963 --> 00:15:16.170 I had received a letter from the IRS 322 00:15:16.170 --> 00:15:20.420 asking me if I wanted my 1040 in braille, 323 00:15:20.420 --> 00:15:23.656 and they sent me a braille form, 324 00:15:23.656 --> 00:15:26.490 and it was really intimidating. 325 00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:29.083 And so that was my introduction to braille. 326 00:15:29.083 --> 00:15:34.083 But the book took away all of that intimidation, 327 00:15:34.941 --> 00:15:39.677 and in conjunction with the narrator 328 00:15:39.677 --> 00:15:44.400 was very calming and very soothing. 329 00:15:44.400 --> 00:15:46.440 Nothing was rushed. 330 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:49.380 You could move at your own pace. 331 00:15:49.380 --> 00:15:52.980 It was a tremendous learning experience. 332 00:15:52.980 --> 00:15:54.521 It's not a one and done. 333 00:15:54.521 --> 00:15:56.400 Learning takes time, 334 00:15:56.400 --> 00:16:00.780 and especially something like this where it's multisensory, 335 00:16:00.780 --> 00:16:03.501 but I found it to be wonderful. 336 00:16:03.501 --> 00:16:06.723 I can't say enough good about it. 337 00:16:07.565 --> 00:16:10.770 What was it like emotionally making that step 338 00:16:10.770 --> 00:16:14.010 and deciding to learn braille? 339 00:16:14.010 --> 00:16:16.950 It was certainly, you mentioned intimidating. 340 00:16:16.950 --> 00:16:20.137 Did you have other hesitancy besides, 341 00:16:20.137 --> 00:16:22.140 "Oh, gosh, I'll never be able to do this," 342 00:16:22.140 --> 00:16:24.600 and kind of what changed initially? 343 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.340 How were you feeling 344 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:29.910 about whether braille was for you or not? 345 00:16:29.910 --> 00:16:31.830 And did that change at all? 346 00:16:31.830 --> 00:16:32.663 Braille is extremely helpful for me in a 347 00:16:32.663 --> 00:16:33.496 practical sense. 348 00:16:36.570 --> 00:16:39.090 You know, the elevator, the room placards, 349 00:16:39.090 --> 00:16:41.430 the finding the hotel room, 350 00:16:41.430 --> 00:16:44.640 that's a very practical use for me. 351 00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:48.660 The National Library System is so great with books 352 00:16:48.660 --> 00:16:50.040 and everything else, 353 00:16:50.040 --> 00:16:54.150 and with the assistive technology of my equipment, 354 00:16:54.150 --> 00:16:55.897 I get along very well. 355 00:16:55.897 --> 00:17:00.734 But there are times when I really need something different 356 00:17:00.734 --> 00:17:03.690 and braille is that something different. 357 00:17:03.690 --> 00:17:06.811 I looked at it as, yeah, intimidating, 358 00:17:06.811 --> 00:17:09.515 but more of a challenge. 359 00:17:09.515 --> 00:17:14.515 It wasn't necessarily scary, it was just a challenge. 360 00:17:14.916 --> 00:17:18.217 And it sounds like once you dived in, 361 00:17:18.217 --> 00:17:21.773 it became a lot less about, 362 00:17:21.773 --> 00:17:25.530 oh, yeah, here are these bumps that I'll never figure out. 363 00:17:25.530 --> 00:17:28.320 And now it's gonna be another tool 364 00:17:28.320 --> 00:17:30.270 in the toolbox for you, right? 365 00:17:30.270 --> 00:17:31.590 Absolutely. 366 00:17:31.590 --> 00:17:32.880 Again, it lines up 367 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:36.060 with all the assistive technology that I have. 368 00:17:36.060 --> 00:17:40.170 It's just one more thing to help me get through my life. 369 00:17:40.170 --> 00:17:41.640 I can't say enough good about it. 370 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.712 It was a wonderful experience to learn it. 371 00:17:44.712 --> 00:17:47.896 The learning process in it was great. 372 00:17:47.896 --> 00:17:52.896 I like to learn, and this was so well-done, polished 373 00:17:54.760 --> 00:17:57.859 that I was so impressed. 374 00:17:57.859 --> 00:18:01.920 I was disappointed when I ran through the book. 375 00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:03.780 I don't need a lot of braille. 376 00:18:03.780 --> 00:18:06.930 I need some, but I wanted to keep learning. 377 00:18:06.930 --> 00:18:09.450 It was such a positive experience. 378 00:18:09.450 --> 00:18:12.656 Again, the voiceover was great. 379 00:18:12.656 --> 00:18:17.520 Didn't sound ever impatient or pushing you. 380 00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:21.480 Warm and accepting and worked with you, it seemed. 381 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:22.920 It was great. 382 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:25.230 So, Mark, listening to you 383 00:18:25.230 --> 00:18:28.230 and listening to what you're saying about the program, 384 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:31.950 I can't tell you how we as the research team, 385 00:18:31.950 --> 00:18:33.300 we were holding our breath. 386 00:18:33.300 --> 00:18:34.796 You know, we did our research. 387 00:18:34.796 --> 00:18:38.557 We felt like we had a really good design, 388 00:18:38.557 --> 00:18:41.158 but as we were pushing it out to our testers, 389 00:18:41.158 --> 00:18:43.080 we would be so nervous. 390 00:18:43.080 --> 00:18:45.090 We were truly almost holding our breath 391 00:18:45.090 --> 00:18:49.200 to hear how a person interacted with it. 392 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:54.200 So it's just so wonderful to hear how you interacted with it 393 00:18:54.438 --> 00:18:56.490 and how pleased you were. 394 00:18:56.490 --> 00:18:58.350 So that really kept us going. 395 00:18:58.350 --> 00:19:00.060 We took your information, 396 00:19:00.060 --> 00:19:02.580 we took the other testers' information, 397 00:19:02.580 --> 00:19:03.540 and we moved forward. 398 00:19:03.540 --> 00:19:06.437 So we really appreciate you taking your time, 399 00:19:06.437 --> 00:19:08.756 and it did take a bit of time, 400 00:19:08.756 --> 00:19:11.577 and looking at this and letting us know, 401 00:19:11.577 --> 00:19:13.301 are you on the right track? 402 00:19:13.301 --> 00:19:15.300 You could do better here. 403 00:19:15.300 --> 00:19:17.340 I like this. You know, improve this. 404 00:19:17.340 --> 00:19:19.013 So we really want to thank you. 405 00:19:19.013 --> 00:19:20.877 There are so many places 406 00:19:20.877 --> 00:19:24.209 where people have tried their best 407 00:19:24.209 --> 00:19:27.270 and really fallen short. 408 00:19:27.270 --> 00:19:29.670 There was a library thing, 409 00:19:29.670 --> 00:19:34.156 and they were trying to give you the help section, 410 00:19:34.156 --> 00:19:38.130 and I'm trying to read it and it's a blur, 411 00:19:38.130 --> 00:19:39.570 just so frustrating. 412 00:19:39.570 --> 00:19:42.570 And it was clearly put together by someone 413 00:19:42.570 --> 00:19:44.840 who was not vision impaired 414 00:19:44.840 --> 00:19:48.758 and had no experience in teaching it. 415 00:19:48.758 --> 00:19:50.973 And then you compare something like that 416 00:19:50.973 --> 00:19:55.720 to the braille learning system that Hadley has 417 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:58.290 and it's night and day. 418 00:19:58.290 --> 00:20:00.037 There's no comparison. 419 00:20:00.037 --> 00:20:04.320 You know, one, you're just struggling to select the text 420 00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:06.420 and get it to read it. 421 00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:08.820 And as opposed to sitting down with the book 422 00:20:08.820 --> 00:20:13.200 and the online portion of it and working through, 423 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.140 so simple, so easy. 424 00:20:16.140 --> 00:20:20.880 I've only looked at the Hadley experience as being positive 425 00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.160 and I wanted to do more. 426 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.440 Wow. This is such a great testimonial. 427 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:28.590 And just hearing from each of you, Kim, 428 00:20:28.590 --> 00:20:31.297 you along with the research and development team 429 00:20:31.297 --> 00:20:34.536 really working hard to try and build 430 00:20:34.536 --> 00:20:37.500 what was going to be a successful project 431 00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:41.790 and then to have someone giving feedback. 432 00:20:41.790 --> 00:20:45.000 And it's just this continuous loop 433 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.516 of you learned from each other and ultimately created 434 00:20:49.516 --> 00:20:54.516 what is going to be a very successful project. 435 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.200 And I'm looking forward to hearing from 436 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:01.320 so many people like Mark who were able to just dive in 437 00:21:01.320 --> 00:21:04.374 and learning braille is not a chore, right? 438 00:21:04.374 --> 00:21:07.160 It's nothing to dread. It's fun. 439 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:11.100 So if somebody is interested in doing that, 440 00:21:11.100 --> 00:21:15.570 because for sure, this sounds like amazing and positive news 441 00:21:15.570 --> 00:21:17.940 for somebody who's looking to read braille, 442 00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:21.420 how do they get access to this? 443 00:21:21.420 --> 00:21:25.080 They certainly can call our Hadley 800 number, 444 00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:29.490 800-323-4238, for our help desk. 445 00:21:29.490 --> 00:21:31.800 They will totally get you set up. 446 00:21:31.800 --> 00:21:33.750 They'll go over the program. 447 00:21:33.750 --> 00:21:35.820 They will get your book mailed out to you 448 00:21:35.820 --> 00:21:39.330 and tell you, you as the adult learner, you decide, 449 00:21:39.330 --> 00:21:40.980 do you want to do it on the computer? 450 00:21:40.980 --> 00:21:42.870 Do you want to do it online? 451 00:21:42.870 --> 00:21:44.997 And they'll totally get you set up. 452 00:21:44.997 --> 00:21:48.840 You can also go to this really long address. 453 00:21:48.840 --> 00:21:51.870 We'll have that in our show notes. 454 00:21:51.870 --> 00:21:52.703 Okay. 455 00:21:52.703 --> 00:21:55.080 We encourage everyone who wants to learn braille 456 00:21:55.080 --> 00:21:58.080 in a tactile manner, please contact us. 457 00:21:58.080 --> 00:21:59.670 This is so exciting. 458 00:21:59.670 --> 00:22:03.540 Any final thoughts that we didn't cover from either of you? 459 00:22:03.540 --> 00:22:05.460 Just things that you would leave someone with 460 00:22:05.460 --> 00:22:07.500 who's thinking about learning braille, 461 00:22:07.500 --> 00:22:09.802 still may be a little bit on the fence 462 00:22:09.802 --> 00:22:12.960 because I'm not sure if this is for me 463 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.373 or I'm not sure I can do it. 464 00:22:15.373 --> 00:22:17.190 I would only recommend it. 465 00:22:17.190 --> 00:22:19.879 There should be no hesitance about this. 466 00:22:19.879 --> 00:22:22.140 It improves your life. 467 00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:25.957 There's a lot more to having vision impairment 468 00:22:25.957 --> 00:22:28.650 than just being vision impaired. 469 00:22:28.650 --> 00:22:31.950 There's a huge emotional impact in this. 470 00:22:31.950 --> 00:22:36.150 You don't need to be feeling like you've been sidelined. 471 00:22:36.150 --> 00:22:39.090 Learning this with this system 472 00:22:39.090 --> 00:22:43.740 brings you back to a more full life. 473 00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:44.910 It's very well-said. 474 00:22:44.910 --> 00:22:46.500 Kim, anything from you? 475 00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:48.270 Exactly what Mark said. 476 00:22:48.270 --> 00:22:50.790 We had people that were a little hesitant. 477 00:22:50.790 --> 00:22:52.898 They thought, maybe it's not for me, 478 00:22:52.898 --> 00:22:54.750 but some of the comments we heard is, 479 00:22:54.750 --> 00:22:56.460 it made me want to learn braille. 480 00:22:56.460 --> 00:22:58.099 And then another person said, 481 00:22:58.099 --> 00:23:02.040 "I'm beginning to accept the fact that this is for me." 482 00:23:02.040 --> 00:23:05.220 There's a use for braille even for those with low vision. 483 00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:09.320 Our feedback, as we were testing and redefining our product, 484 00:23:09.320 --> 00:23:12.540 it was overwhelmingly positive. 485 00:23:12.540 --> 00:23:15.420 We encourage everyone to give it a try. 486 00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:18.480 Thank you both so much for stopping by 487 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:20.010 and discussing braille. 488 00:23:20.010 --> 00:23:23.520 It really is an exciting time. 489 00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:26.480 Having just this way to learn braille 490 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.670 is an excellent tool in the toolbox. 491 00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:32.160 Thank you both so much for dropping by. 492 00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:33.594 Thanks, Ricky. 493 00:23:33.594 --> 00:23:35.681 Thanks a bunch, Mark, for everything you've done for us. 494 00:23:35.681 --> 00:23:39.681 I can't thank you enough for what you've done. 495 00:23:40.680 --> 00:23:42.240 Got something to say? 496 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:45.270 Share your thoughts about this episode of "Hadley Presents" 497 00:23:45.270 --> 00:23:47.850 or make suggestions for future episodes. 498 00:23:47.850 --> 00:23:49.196 We'd love to hear from you. 499 00:23:49.196 --> 00:23:53.200 Send us an email at podcast@hadley.edu. 500 00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:58.200 That's P-O-D-C-A-S-T @hadley.edu. 501 00:23:59.040 --> 00:24:02.017 Or leave us a message at 847-784-2870. 502 00:24:05.083 --> 00:24:06.573 Thanks for listening.