(bright music)
Welcome to, "Hadley Presents."
I'm your host, Ricky Enger, inviting you to sit back, relax,
and enjoy a conversation with the experts.
In this episode, Jim Hoxie and Joanna Jones,
co-authors of, "Grandpa's White Cane," join us
to celebrate White Cane Safety Day.
Welcome to the show, both of you.
Thank you. Thank you.
It is so good to have you both here coming from,
I believe Spearfish, which I've never been,
but it sounds like a beautiful place to be.
It sure is.
And our book shows all the places Jim walks along the creek.
Excellent, and we're going to be talking about
that book in just a bit.
But before we do that, why don't we just get a couple
of introductions from you all.
So, Jim, we'll start with you.
Tell us a bit about yourself.
Well, as you mentioned, I live along with my wife
in the Black Hills of South Dakota,
that's on the northwest side of South Dakota.
If you think Mount Rushmore, we're about an hour,
hour and a half drive to Mount Rushmore.
And I am the lucky guy that plays
the starring role in, "Grandpa's White Cane."
Awesome, I love it.
And, Joanna, how about you?
Well, I've been a school teacher
for about 40 years
and then in the last few years I decided to convert
to being a children's author.
And that's of course how this book came into being.
What an awesome story.
And I think we're gonna expand on that a little later.
Just what an interesting career to be able
to tell stories to children
because I think we can let them know so much about the world
just with a really good engaging story.
Jim, I know that you are, I wouldn't say you're new
to the white cane anymore, but you haven't always used it.
Can you talk a bit about what that journey was like for you?
How did you go from being just a person
who maybe didn't know anything about the white cane
and then suddenly you have to use one yourself?
What was that transition like?
I was a very active guy.
I still am, a retired forester.
Back in 2020, well, let's say 2001,
I was diagnosed with glaucoma
and then in 2013 I was diagnosed as legally blind.
So, it's a long learning curve.
We've learned a lot and done well with it.
How about your transition with driving?
Did you feel like that was okay?
Well, it's a tough transition.
I couldn't drive, I had always done all the driving
with my wife Linda.
We gradually made that transition.
I used the white cane and get around very well with it.
Yeah, but that's the tall white cane today.
When you first started you just used a little grandpa cane.
And you make canes, and so you used one of your own canes.
Yeah, when I started, I really didn't
have any training
to speak of with a tall white cane, so I used what I had
and I was given a shorter cane.
It was white.
Yeah, after quite a few stumbles and hiccups,
why I moved towards getting the professional training
with the O&M and learn how to work with that.
Yeah, it sounds like you may have had an ID cane,
what a lot of people call an ID cane.
So it's something that says, "Hey,
I don't see as well as you might."
And this is just to let you know that,
but it isn't necessarily the same sort of mobility aid.
And as you say, that training in how to use a cane
is so important and such an essential thing to make sure
that you are using it safely
and eventually that you can tell others about
sort of what its purpose is.
Joanna, you are probably quite familiar
with the white cane now, but perhaps you weren't always,
so I'm just curious if you as I guess,
a member of the general public,
did you have some thoughts about
what the cane was for, how it worked,
and how was Jim able to set you straight
on a couple of things or were you mostly right about
what you thought?
That was where Jim and I were talking
and I know that a white cane
means that the person's probably blind
and help 'em if they need help.
And that was the total of what I knew
prior to writing this book.
When you ask what did I really know,
I'd have to say no, I didn't know anything.
I mean, even if I had just closed my eyes
and started walking around,
I still wouldn't have had the right feel.
But in writing the book, the process became
with our illustrator where, what does the white cane do?
How do you get a rhythm with how to walk with it?
How do you position it in your hand?
How are you going to have the human guide position?
All of those details in the book became
where Jim would tell me what they were.
Our illustrator tried to take pictures,
but then the two sighted people, myself and our illustrator,
we had to really look at the image and see
if it was what Jim was telling us.
And then we'd always go back and say, model it again, Jim.
And we took more pictures.
And the piece that Jim really felt was so important
was to make sure the accuracy of how the cane
was being held, how the human guide
was being positioned next to the body.
All of these things were so very important
because we want the visually impaired to know
that there's accuracy in this book.
That's what we were really trying to establish.
And hopefully that's what you saw
or those around you saw when they looked at the book too.
I do have some vision and so using magnification
and that post circuit TV, I could see the book.
And Joanna is exactly right.
We had a long journey, but we worked out the details
and it came together beautifully.
And, Jim, how did it come about in the
first place?
How did you go from no training at all
to then learning the proper ways
to both use a cane and work with a human guide?
All of these things that you get
when you have quality training.
And then how did you go from there to decide,
I've learned a lot, but the people around me
probably still need to learn some things too.
And wouldn't it be great if we could teach
children about this?
So how was that going from no knowledge yourself
to then deciding we should create a children's book.
I was actually with our doctor in Spearfish
and she happened to ask during the physical,
"Well, Jim, how are you doing with your vision?"
And I said to her, "That is such a good question."
And I had never been asked that by a doctor before.
And she was amazed by that.
This is when I'd been through quite a few surgeries.
And she said, "Are you a veteran?"
I said, "Yes, I am."
And she immediately got up and walked out,
went to the phone, and she called the VA
and came back in and said, "Well, Jim,
you're set now to be called by the VA
and you're gonna be going to the Blind Rehab Center
in Chicago, the Veteran Hines Blind Rehab Center.
Wow, I had no clue.
I didn't know about these resources.
And I had tried to learn about the resources,
but no one had offered that.
So, it was exciting for me.
And I went and you can imagine a legally blind guy
getting on a jet and flying from Spearfish,
South Dakota to Chicago.
That's a little scary first time.
And I didn't know how to use a cane.
I mean, I'd been stumbling around trying.
But, so we made it, I made it alone
and they picked me up at the airport
and I had six weeks of one-on-one training
with a qualified certified trainer
learning how to use the tall white cane.
Now along with that, we had quite a few other classes,
but for me the highlight was the white cane.
The confidence and independence
of using that was really awesome.
That's how that came about.
And I came back to Spearfish.
And while there, one of the directors, assistant directors
said to me, "Asked how I was doing."
And I said, "Well, I'm doing fine,
But it seems to me like a lot of people
really don't know what the white cane is."
A lot of people do, but a lot of people don't.
He said, "Well, how do you feel about that?"
Not too good.
And so he said, "Well, I want to encourage you
and challenge you to go back to Spearfish
and think about working with middle school aged children."
So, when I came back.
Yes, when you came back and you started
telling us
all about this episode of how to get into schools
and tell people about it, he talked to teachers.
A couple of us are retired teachers around here,
and we said, "Well, Jim, if you wanna get into a school,
we'll just do that."
We made it happen. Yes.
So we did, we just sat down and of course,
Jim being a forester was not used to teaching lesson plans.
And so I went into the classroom with Jim
and we made our lesson plan, and then we also made sure
that we had interactions for the children.
Tell her about the canes you made, Jim, for the children.
We wanted it to make educational and fun.
I put together some wooden dowels.
They're may be three, three and a half feet long
and they're painted red on the one end
and there's a black handle on the other.
And when we go into the classroom,
we actually give the children an opportunity
to follow me around the classroom.
And wow, that was really well received.
They were enthusiastic, asked great questions.
And I see those children four, five years later
and they're still saying, "Oh, you're the guy,
you're the blind guy that came to our class."
And yeah, and sometimes they have a friend with them
and they're telling the other child about their experience.
It's great, it's fun.
It really is neat to hear this coming back again.
But that was why when Jim was going into the classroom,
after about two years of doing this or twice we went
and I said, "Jim, we have a lot more schools in the area
and we need to go out and talk to them."
And between the two of us, we kind of said, "Well,
maybe it would be a better to just write it in a book,
and then we could talk to kids all over the world."
And so that's what we did was we started writing it
after that second year of presenting, we wanted to make sure
that everybody got a chance to see the book,
but our first piece was with the Lions Club.
They gave us some money,
so that once we got our book published,
we could take the published book
into our local classes here.
And they had those available for the children
to read all the time and not just the day that Jim came.
It's gone from just there in Spearfish to,
of course now your book is available on Amazon.
You can get that in print format
with illustrations as well as on the Kindle.
So if you wanna read it electronically,
it's available that way as well.
We will of course have links to that in the show notes.
And again, I think it's such a great idea
to distill all of those things
that you were teaching the children
and probably you learned some things along the way
based on the kinds of questions that they asked.
And then to put that into a book.
Is there one thing that maybe
it wasn't included in the book, but just one general thing
that you wish the public knew about the white cane?
Mine is don't grab it ever.
People want to take that cane,
grab it and treat it like a steering wheel,
like they can point you in a particular direction.
So, that's mine.
Do you have one, Jim, that you really wish
people knew about the cane that a lot of them don't?
We live in a relatively small community,
maybe 12,000 people.
And literally I think I've not ever seen
another person with a white cane.
Having the public recognize what the cane is
and what it's for and what that means is so important.
And many, many people do, but some don't.
So one of the very important things for me
is that people recognize and know what that is,
is so that for my safety and for their safety,
but they need to know that there it is
and that's why I'm using it.
And I think too that in our book,
we've put in those white cane sidebars
that really help a person who is sighted to know what to do,
how to help a person with a white cane.
Like just tell your name when you get to the person.
Jim says, so often people at church will come up
and hugging him and he has no idea who's hugging him.
(Jim chuckling)
I just so appreciate,
like when I come into the house and I decided to hug Jim,
I said, "I'm going to give you a hug,
so that I don't get this fist in my chest
because he is going. (chuckles)
So true, so true.
Yeah. 'cause you just don't know
where the other person is.
And the other thing is to return things
back to their proper place so that when I use it,
Jim can find it later.
And I think that was one thing that you really had
to work with here at the house,
moving into the tall white came,
everybody had to remember where to put stuff.
Whether it's the Cheerios in the morning or
the remote
or whatever it is it, where the sandwich meat
is in the refrigerator.
It actually has to be in the same place all the time.
And that takes a long learning transition
both for my family and my grandchildren
and my wife and for me.
But it is really important that people understand that.
And even like when we take things into school,
I have to make sure I always have the same things
and we have them in the same place in the classroom,
so when Jim turns to say, "Yes,
we're going to use these canes," they're right there,
even though they're just a model.
And kids can make their own decision if they want
to close their eyes or not when they do it,
but it's just exciting to see that happen in the classroom.
Absolutely, I think there are a lot
of just really good practical tips
that you covered for making that transition a lot easier.
And even though it can be, there's work involved, right?
Teaching your wife, your grandchildren, people around you,
this is what helps me to feel confident and safe
and that I know where things are.
At the end of that transition,
if there ever really is an end,
it's probably just a continuous adjustment
process in some ways.
But looking back now, Jim,
are there things that you would tell somebody
who is maybe just at the beginning stages
of losing their vision and they're thinking about,
I don't know if I wanna do this cane thing,
I don't feel comfortable with it.
It doesn't feel like me.
Is there something that you would say to that person
to make that transition feel a little easier
or more comfortable?
That's a very anxious time, at least in my life.
Gradually for me, I needed to realize
that if I wanted to be independent and have confidence
and feel safe, that I needed to have more
than just somebody handing me a white cane
and say, "Go to work."
Looking back on it, I would say to people
that are thinking about this,
that if they want to use the white cane
and have that for me joy of using it,
they need to consider getting professional help
from a certified O&M instructor.
That's orientation and mobility instructor.
And they're available.
Sometimes various states will provide that assistance.
And if you're a veteran, a blinded veteran,
then you can go to some of these facilities
that are offered that are very, very good.
I would encourage people to consider those.
But you know, it is work.
You really, really gotta want to do this.
But for me it definitely is worth it
and I love being out in the community.
I hope others will consider that
and move forward in their learning process.
Thank you so much for that.
And if you're listening and you're not sure
how to go about finding an O&M instructor,
you can contact Hadley and we can put you in touch
with someone in your state or with the VA
if you're a veteran, just to remove that bit of it
from the equation.
If you're struggling to find someone, we can help with that.
Jim, Joanna, I wanna thank you both so much for joining us.
Is there anything that we haven't covered
that you would like to tell our listeners
before we wrap it up?
One of the things that I think Jim
just really needs to tell you about
is that we had a third grader one time come up to him
after he had presented.
And what did the third grader ask you, Jim?
A touching moment.
He walked up and said, brings tears to my eyes.
It does. Go ahead.
The third grader was knowing that he was going
to be losing his eyesight and he came up to Jim and he said,
"I have so enjoyed practicing today hearing about this,
and you are really good at using the white cane.
Can I come and ask you questions?
Can you be my mentor when I need you?"
It was quite a moment for me.
Yes, it was.
That is an amazing story.
And, Jim, just knowing that you are not just
educating people who were sighted about the white came,
but you're also serving as an example for someone
who's going to be going through that themselves,
that had to feel just amazing.
Yeah, it really did.
And it still does.
One of the other questions
that kids inevitably will be asking us or they'll say,
"My grandma has eye problems, should she use a white cane?"
And while of course we don't know,
but we talk to them about the fact
that there are resources in the back of the book
or they can contact Jim.
And that's important.
The third graders, we can really tell
that they are thinking about being blind,
the not seeing things.
And so they will ask Jim simple questions like,
how do you drive?
How do you tell time, Jim?
How do you watch TV?
How do you even pick out your clothes?
And that makes a big difference when we know
that we have actually made a connection
with what is this white cane, this tall white cane,
what is it all about?
And I think that's really important.
Absolutely, and you never know what kinds
of questions kids are going to ask.
I had a friend who tells the story
of hearing those questions that you have just mentioned.
How do you watch TV?
How do you tell time or cook or whatever.
She was fully expecting those questions.
There was one instance where she reached the end
of her presentation and asked
if there were questions from the kids.
And one of them said, "I really like your backpack.
Where did you get it?"
And so it was not just questions about blindness
or low vision, but in general when kids are able
to see the blind or low vision person
as you do things differently than I do,
but in some ways we're just the same too.
For sure.
Exactly, we are. (chuckles)
Thank you, both so much
for spending a little time with us.
I really appreciate it
and I know that our audience will as well.
Just a reminder that in our show notes
we will have information on how to get your very own copy
of, "Grandpa's White Cane."
Again, congratulations to both of you on a fantastic book
and thanks for joining us.
Thank you. Thank you.
We really appreciate it today. We sure do.
(bright music)
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