WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.750 (soothing music) 2 00:00:04.050 --> 00:00:06.240 Welcome to "Hadley Presents". 3 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:09.870 I'm your host, Ricky Enger, inviting you to sit back, 4 00:00:09.870 --> 00:00:13.620 relax, and enjoy a conversation with the experts. 5 00:00:13.620 --> 00:00:16.860 In this episode, we explore options for reading 6 00:00:16.860 --> 00:00:18.270 after vision loss 7 00:00:18.270 --> 00:00:21.660 and our guest is Hadley learning expert, Steve Kelley. 8 00:00:21.660 --> 00:00:23.130 Welcome to the show, Steve. 9 00:00:23.130 --> 00:00:24.750 Hey Ricky, thanks for having me. 10 00:00:24.750 --> 00:00:26.400 Yeah, great to have you back, 11 00:00:26.400 --> 00:00:30.300 and for those of you that don't know you, 12 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:32.130 maybe this is their first episode, 13 00:00:32.130 --> 00:00:33.990 why don't you just give a quick intro 14 00:00:33.990 --> 00:00:35.820 and tell us a bit about yourself? 15 00:00:35.820 --> 00:00:38.130 You know, people may have heard me on one of 16 00:00:38.130 --> 00:00:41.107 three discussion groups that I'm a part of. 17 00:00:41.107 --> 00:00:44.880 "Get Up and Go" is one, "Crafting Circle", and "Book Nook". 18 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:47.250 And I'd love to see anybody who hasn't 19 00:00:47.250 --> 00:00:49.170 already heard those join in. 20 00:00:49.170 --> 00:00:52.800 And then, you know, my day job is working with you 21 00:00:52.800 --> 00:00:55.980 in the tech group, which I absolutely love. 22 00:00:55.980 --> 00:00:58.260 Yeah, we have a fantastic time 23 00:00:58.260 --> 00:01:00.810 and I think it's interesting that 24 00:01:00.810 --> 00:01:04.500 you are a co-host on "Book Nook" 25 00:01:04.500 --> 00:01:07.590 and I think that experience will certainly come in handy 26 00:01:07.590 --> 00:01:10.290 for our topic today. 27 00:01:10.290 --> 00:01:14.130 And I know that you've done some work in the field 28 00:01:14.130 --> 00:01:17.460 with people who have experienced vision loss 29 00:01:17.460 --> 00:01:20.130 and you have some personal experience with that too. 30 00:01:20.130 --> 00:01:25.130 So just really looking forward to diving into this topic, 31 00:01:26.070 --> 00:01:29.760 'cause there's a lot here to cover. 32 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:32.700 So what we're talking about today is 33 00:01:32.700 --> 00:01:34.440 reading after vision loss, 34 00:01:34.440 --> 00:01:38.520 which is a pretty broad topic 35 00:01:38.520 --> 00:01:42.120 and there are so many different things that we can cover, 36 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:46.110 because, you know, there are lots of different ways 37 00:01:46.110 --> 00:01:49.020 even to think about reading. 38 00:01:49.020 --> 00:01:50.370 Are you reading for pleasure? 39 00:01:50.370 --> 00:01:52.620 Are you reading because you have to? 40 00:01:52.620 --> 00:01:55.500 Once you decide that, then 41 00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:57.600 how are you reading? What's available? 42 00:01:57.600 --> 00:02:00.150 What techniques can people use? 43 00:02:00.150 --> 00:02:04.230 And I think a lot of people just don't know 44 00:02:04.230 --> 00:02:05.063 what's available, 45 00:02:05.063 --> 00:02:09.720 so that's why we wanted to have this discussion. 46 00:02:09.720 --> 00:02:13.410 So I guess we'll start with what happens 47 00:02:13.410 --> 00:02:17.280 when someone is starting to lose their vision. 48 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:20.850 Or maybe it's gradual or maybe it's very sudden, 49 00:02:20.850 --> 00:02:23.070 but in either case, 50 00:02:23.070 --> 00:02:27.840 there's probably some change in how they're reading. 51 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.690 Maybe they're trying to read in the same way 52 00:02:30.690 --> 00:02:34.830 they always have, but it's not as easy as it once was, 53 00:02:34.830 --> 00:02:37.800 so there's this adjustment period. 54 00:02:37.800 --> 00:02:40.770 What kinds of things do people try 55 00:02:40.770 --> 00:02:43.290 when they're in that period of figuring out, 56 00:02:43.290 --> 00:02:47.160 hey, I still want to read, but I'm kind of struggling? 57 00:02:47.160 --> 00:02:49.740 Oftentimes, when I was working 58 00:02:49.740 --> 00:02:52.470 as a vision rehab therapist, I would often show up 59 00:02:52.470 --> 00:02:55.800 and somebody would pull out grandpa or grandma's 60 00:02:55.800 --> 00:02:59.790 handheld magnifier from the 1930s or something like that. 61 00:02:59.790 --> 00:03:02.760 They oftentimes were not having a whole lot of success 62 00:03:02.760 --> 00:03:05.100 with it and just weren't sure why. 63 00:03:05.100 --> 00:03:08.467 I've just seen all kinds of other things like that, 64 00:03:08.467 --> 00:03:11.040 you know, and sometimes there's stuff on the TV 65 00:03:11.040 --> 00:03:14.490 that we see or, you know, you walk into a box store 66 00:03:14.490 --> 00:03:17.190 and there are some handheld magnifiers there 67 00:03:17.190 --> 00:03:21.510 and unfortunately a lot of times they don't work 68 00:03:21.510 --> 00:03:24.090 as well as people think they're going to. 69 00:03:24.090 --> 00:03:26.880 The reason is because one size doesn't fit all. 70 00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:29.550 There's just all kinds of different things out there 71 00:03:29.550 --> 00:03:31.530 and a handheld magnifier is a great device. 72 00:03:31.530 --> 00:03:32.760 Don't get me wrong. 73 00:03:32.760 --> 00:03:37.440 But you want one that fits where your vision happens to be. 74 00:03:37.440 --> 00:03:40.830 That's kind of where I saw the failure in 75 00:03:40.830 --> 00:03:44.040 that method happening was people just weren't really having 76 00:03:44.040 --> 00:03:46.380 an assessment and figuring out which one 77 00:03:46.380 --> 00:03:48.000 was going to be the best one. 78 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:49.800 Well then, how do people know? 79 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:53.520 And I'm sure this too is not a one size fits all. 80 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.970 I think there's this feeling that, 81 00:03:56.970 --> 00:04:00.630 if I just try hard enough, I can make this work 82 00:04:00.630 --> 00:04:04.830 and maybe I'm the problem or I'm not using it right 83 00:04:04.830 --> 00:04:09.330 or maybe this will just get better if I keep at it. 84 00:04:09.330 --> 00:04:14.330 So how do people know then when it's time 85 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:17.910 to investigate some other technique 86 00:04:17.910 --> 00:04:20.070 that might be a little more successful? 87 00:04:20.070 --> 00:04:21.911 One of the things that I've 88 00:04:21.911 --> 00:04:23.061 observed both personally 89 00:04:23.061 --> 00:04:25.170 and with clients in the past is that 90 00:04:25.170 --> 00:04:26.850 none of us likes change. 91 00:04:26.850 --> 00:04:28.770 And maybe I should just speak for myself. 92 00:04:28.770 --> 00:04:30.540 I certainly don't like change. 93 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:33.630 So those of us who have spent most of our lives reading 94 00:04:33.630 --> 00:04:36.450 with our vision, that's what we want to hang onto 95 00:04:36.450 --> 00:04:39.450 and we are going to hang onto it tooth and nail, 96 00:04:39.450 --> 00:04:41.070 no matter what happens. 97 00:04:41.070 --> 00:04:43.290 Let me just give you a quick story. 98 00:04:43.290 --> 00:04:47.370 When I started a master's degree about 18 years ago, 99 00:04:47.370 --> 00:04:49.380 you know, I showed up on campus 100 00:04:49.380 --> 00:04:51.480 and we had done some reading beforehand 101 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:53.340 and I was woefully behind in my reading 102 00:04:53.340 --> 00:04:55.830 and that's not really who I am, you know, 103 00:04:55.830 --> 00:04:58.440 but at the time, I was doing my reading 104 00:04:58.440 --> 00:05:00.570 with a handheld magnifying glass, 105 00:05:00.570 --> 00:05:03.450 because I had always read visually, and highlighting, 106 00:05:03.450 --> 00:05:06.930 and putting notes in the textbook, the printed textbook, 107 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:09.630 which by the way was just in regular print, 108 00:05:09.630 --> 00:05:13.170 and it wasn't working and I knew it wasn't working, 109 00:05:13.170 --> 00:05:16.290 but I wasn't willing to do anything differently, 110 00:05:16.290 --> 00:05:18.390 'cause that's the way I had always done it. 111 00:05:18.390 --> 00:05:22.080 One of the students who was blind in the the workshop, 112 00:05:22.080 --> 00:05:23.910 she seemed like she was all caught up 113 00:05:23.910 --> 00:05:25.800 and knew all of the answers and everything, 114 00:05:25.800 --> 00:05:28.800 so I finally said to her, "How are you doing this?" 115 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:31.260 And she said, "Well, I went to the office 116 00:05:31.260 --> 00:05:34.350 for students with disabilities and I got the text 117 00:05:34.350 --> 00:05:36.870 on a CD and I'm just using my computer 118 00:05:36.870 --> 00:05:39.360 to do the reading text-to-speech." 119 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:41.520 Which is where the computer or whatever device 120 00:05:41.520 --> 00:05:43.860 you happen to be using is just reading everything 121 00:05:43.860 --> 00:05:46.020 that's on the screen out loud to you. 122 00:05:46.020 --> 00:05:48.780 And I'm like, "Oh, the office for students 123 00:05:48.780 --> 00:05:50.010 with disabilities." (Steve laughs) 124 00:05:50.010 --> 00:05:53.250 So, you know, and here's the thing. 125 00:05:53.250 --> 00:05:55.830 I mean, I did not see myself as somebody 126 00:05:55.830 --> 00:06:00.180 with a disability, but because of the frustration 127 00:06:00.180 --> 00:06:03.840 and also, you know, being concerned about my grades 128 00:06:03.840 --> 00:06:05.370 and all of that other stuff, 129 00:06:05.370 --> 00:06:07.680 that's where I was the very following morning 130 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:10.080 at, like, eight o'clock filling out the paperwork 131 00:06:10.080 --> 00:06:11.910 and getting my CD with it, 132 00:06:11.910 --> 00:06:13.590 and then I put it on my computer 133 00:06:13.590 --> 00:06:15.990 and I started using the text-to-speech, 134 00:06:15.990 --> 00:06:18.390 which I had some familiarity with. 135 00:06:18.390 --> 00:06:21.840 It wasn't smooth and it wasn't seamless 136 00:06:21.840 --> 00:06:24.030 and I didn't get it at first. 137 00:06:24.030 --> 00:06:26.220 I mean, it was a bit of a struggle, 138 00:06:26.220 --> 00:06:28.830 but it was a heck of a lot better than what I was doing 139 00:06:28.830 --> 00:06:30.870 with the handheld magnifier 140 00:06:30.870 --> 00:06:33.810 and I just kept at it, because that's what I needed to do 141 00:06:33.810 --> 00:06:37.050 in order to succeed in those classes, you know, 142 00:06:37.050 --> 00:06:38.370 and I don't think that I'm 143 00:06:38.370 --> 00:06:40.590 that much different than a lot of other people. 144 00:06:40.590 --> 00:06:43.260 I still find, you know, I have to remind myself 145 00:06:43.260 --> 00:06:45.060 to be mindful about efficiency 146 00:06:45.060 --> 00:06:49.170 and trying things differently when things aren't working. 147 00:06:49.170 --> 00:06:53.730 Yeah, and I guess it really does take some 148 00:06:53.730 --> 00:06:58.110 kind of motivator, because change really is hard 149 00:06:58.110 --> 00:07:02.580 and perhaps you have to have something 150 00:07:02.580 --> 00:07:04.230 that you're trying to accomplish 151 00:07:04.230 --> 00:07:09.230 that's just become too frustrating to ignore that may, 152 00:07:09.630 --> 00:07:12.630 you know, get you to that point. 153 00:07:12.630 --> 00:07:16.200 Perhaps you're proactive and you're learning things 154 00:07:16.200 --> 00:07:18.600 before you necessarily need them, 155 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:21.600 which may also make that transition easier. 156 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:23.557 I guess it's different for everybody. 157 00:07:23.557 --> 00:07:25.770 You know, you bring up a really good point, 158 00:07:25.770 --> 00:07:27.060 and I should say, you know, 159 00:07:27.060 --> 00:07:30.060 I just spoke to somebody on the phone within this last week 160 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:32.760 who was being extraordinarily proactive. 161 00:07:32.760 --> 00:07:35.130 She's an 85-year-old writer. 162 00:07:35.130 --> 00:07:37.320 She has things that she needs to write 163 00:07:37.320 --> 00:07:40.729 and she was checking in with vocational rehab 164 00:07:40.729 --> 00:07:43.350 and learning how to use the iPhone 165 00:07:43.350 --> 00:07:47.400 and voiceover on it so that she could master it, 166 00:07:47.400 --> 00:07:50.400 because she wanted to continue doing those things 167 00:07:50.400 --> 00:07:52.890 and, you know, she still had some functional vision, 168 00:07:52.890 --> 00:07:54.720 so she was being very proactive 169 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.350 and I just really applauded that personality type. 170 00:07:58.350 --> 00:07:59.790 It's just not mine. 171 00:07:59.790 --> 00:08:04.050 But you know, there are people out there who do that 172 00:08:04.050 --> 00:08:05.280 and that's wonderful. 173 00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:09.390 So I guess there are, well, I guess at least two 174 00:08:09.390 --> 00:08:10.650 types of reading. 175 00:08:10.650 --> 00:08:13.050 There's reading because you want to, you know, 176 00:08:13.050 --> 00:08:15.180 curling up with a good book, reading for pleasure, 177 00:08:15.180 --> 00:08:18.510 and then there's reading because you have to. 178 00:08:18.510 --> 00:08:22.320 I want to know which mail is junk mail 179 00:08:22.320 --> 00:08:24.840 or how do I cook this thing 180 00:08:24.840 --> 00:08:28.170 or what medication is this? 181 00:08:28.170 --> 00:08:31.950 Why don't we talk about ways that 182 00:08:31.950 --> 00:08:36.480 people can do that necessary reading? 183 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.510 Are there devices or products that are available 184 00:08:39.510 --> 00:08:43.950 that are really well-suited to that kind of reading? 185 00:08:43.950 --> 00:08:45.930 This is a great distinction that you bring up, 186 00:08:45.930 --> 00:08:49.440 because, you know, that piece of mail that just came in 187 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:54.440 or that quick short note or label that you need to read, 188 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.540 a lot of those things can be quickly and easily done 189 00:08:57.540 --> 00:08:59.760 with a good handheld magnifier for sure. 190 00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:00.990 And in fact, you know, 191 00:09:00.990 --> 00:09:05.990 my go-to magnifier is just a 5x Bausch and Lomb magnifier 192 00:09:06.180 --> 00:09:10.110 that I have in my right pocket every single day. 193 00:09:10.110 --> 00:09:12.360 It's really not a great magnifier, 194 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:13.800 'cause there's no light on it. 195 00:09:13.800 --> 00:09:16.620 In most situations, I can do what's called 196 00:09:16.620 --> 00:09:18.120 spot reading with it. 197 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.000 You know, I can see enough of it to know what's going on. 198 00:09:21.000 --> 00:09:24.300 That's kind of the low-tech approach. 199 00:09:24.300 --> 00:09:28.200 The other go-to thing is I've always got my phone on me. 200 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.950 It's a smartphone and oftentimes I open up the camera, 201 00:09:31.950 --> 00:09:35.548 you know, use the magnification gesture on that 202 00:09:35.548 --> 00:09:38.400 and make things a little bit larger, 203 00:09:38.400 --> 00:09:39.600 again, for spot reading. 204 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:42.000 You're not going to read a magazine article 205 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:43.590 or anything like that. 206 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:45.570 You know, then when you have something that 207 00:09:45.570 --> 00:09:48.450 you really want to read for pleasure, 208 00:09:48.450 --> 00:09:51.990 like a magazine article or a book or something, 209 00:09:51.990 --> 00:09:55.980 then, you know, you have a whole new set of tools 210 00:09:55.980 --> 00:09:57.930 perhaps in your toolbox 211 00:09:57.930 --> 00:10:00.510 and I always think of it in terms of a toolbox, 212 00:10:00.510 --> 00:10:02.730 because there's not just one device 213 00:10:02.730 --> 00:10:04.560 that's going to do this stuff. 214 00:10:04.560 --> 00:10:07.650 You might have a pair of reading glasses. 215 00:10:07.650 --> 00:10:09.990 You might have that handheld magnifier, 216 00:10:09.990 --> 00:10:13.440 you know, or maybe you've got a desktop video magnifier 217 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.500 where you've got a platform and you put your cookbook 218 00:10:16.500 --> 00:10:18.960 or other reading material right on the platform 219 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:21.240 and above that is a camera and it takes a picture 220 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:23.520 of the text and puts it up on the screen, 221 00:10:23.520 --> 00:10:25.917 so then you can zoom in or magnify however you want to 222 00:10:25.917 --> 00:10:27.900 and it makes it easier to read. 223 00:10:27.900 --> 00:10:30.600 Again for me, like, if I'm doing research, 224 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:34.830 then I completely switch to text-to-speech almost entirely. 225 00:10:34.830 --> 00:10:37.980 You know, I just use something on the iPhone 226 00:10:37.980 --> 00:10:42.540 or my computer that reads the text on the computer screen, 227 00:10:42.540 --> 00:10:45.090 because I can always pause it and go back 228 00:10:45.090 --> 00:10:46.080 and that sort of thing. 229 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:49.200 So I too make a real distinction between 230 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:51.030 what I'm reading, say, for pleasure 231 00:10:51.030 --> 00:10:54.750 or what I'm just reading real quickly, like, you know, 232 00:10:54.750 --> 00:10:56.940 the mail or something like that 233 00:10:56.940 --> 00:10:59.460 and it's something that's a little bit more 234 00:10:59.460 --> 00:11:01.620 complicated or more in depth. 235 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:04.200 I know that you read in different ways too 236 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:08.610 and I suspect that you too have a way that you'd prefer 237 00:11:08.610 --> 00:11:12.150 to read something that's a little bit more in depth versus, 238 00:11:12.150 --> 00:11:15.150 say, you know, casual or pleasure reading, right? 239 00:11:15.150 --> 00:11:16.320 Yeah, definitely. 240 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:21.180 So, and I have no vision, so if I'm reading something 241 00:11:21.180 --> 00:11:24.390 that's the equivalent of spot reading, 242 00:11:24.390 --> 00:11:29.390 I too am going to use a tool on my smartphone, 243 00:11:29.610 --> 00:11:34.610 whether it is something like an app called Seeing AI, 244 00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:38.700 and hey, we have information on the Hadley website 245 00:11:38.700 --> 00:11:39.600 about that. 246 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.380 So there's Seeing AI. There's an app called Envision. 247 00:11:43.380 --> 00:11:47.220 These are apps that allow you to get just a quick 248 00:11:47.220 --> 00:11:49.770 and not always super accurate, 249 00:11:49.770 --> 00:11:54.720 but accurate enough idea of that text, 250 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:57.780 enough to figure out, oh, this is junk mail, 251 00:11:57.780 --> 00:12:00.630 oh, this is that business card that, you know, 252 00:12:00.630 --> 00:12:02.670 I wanted to call the person back to 253 00:12:02.670 --> 00:12:04.770 come mow my lawn or whatever. 254 00:12:04.770 --> 00:12:07.260 Those are the kinds of things that I would use 255 00:12:07.260 --> 00:12:08.820 for spot reading. 256 00:12:08.820 --> 00:12:12.900 Either that or I would get some visual assistance. 257 00:12:12.900 --> 00:12:15.690 Now, that could be someone in my home 258 00:12:15.690 --> 00:12:19.680 or, more often than that, I will choose to 259 00:12:19.680 --> 00:12:22.680 use a visual interpreting service. 260 00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:26.220 So this is a thing where you can call somebody up 261 00:12:26.220 --> 00:12:29.460 using your phone with a camera. 262 00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:31.230 Generally, they're smartphones, 263 00:12:31.230 --> 00:12:34.470 but there are a couple of less smartphones 264 00:12:34.470 --> 00:12:38.310 that also have this capability, where you can, again, 265 00:12:38.310 --> 00:12:40.980 call the person, they can see what's happening 266 00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:45.600 through your camera, give just that quick spot reading 267 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:48.690 for you, and then off you go about your day. 268 00:12:48.690 --> 00:12:50.970 So that's what I do for spot reading. 269 00:12:50.970 --> 00:12:55.080 And then, for something that's a little more involved, 270 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:57.690 whether it's, you know, pleasure reading 271 00:12:57.690 --> 00:13:02.160 or something that's going to take a lot longer to read, 272 00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:04.530 then I'm probably on my computer 273 00:13:04.530 --> 00:13:07.110 or perhaps I'm reading it in braille. 274 00:13:07.110 --> 00:13:10.740 Lots of different ways to go about reading 275 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:12.300 that longer text, 276 00:13:12.300 --> 00:13:15.210 so why don't we talk then about that? 277 00:13:15.210 --> 00:13:18.360 How do you approach, if you're doing some research 278 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:20.250 or you're reading a long article, 279 00:13:20.250 --> 00:13:23.040 or again, if you're curling up with that good book 280 00:13:23.040 --> 00:13:25.783 for pleasure, what do you tend to use? 281 00:13:25.783 --> 00:13:27.625 If I'm pleasure reading, 282 00:13:27.625 --> 00:13:29.400 I will probably get something 283 00:13:29.400 --> 00:13:33.150 that is narrated by a human being. 284 00:13:33.150 --> 00:13:36.300 These days, if I'm pleasure reading, I am going to go 285 00:13:36.300 --> 00:13:40.440 to Audible where, you know, you've got a human-narrated 286 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:44.220 book, or actually I'm first going to check to see 287 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:47.280 if it's on Talking Books, and if it is, 288 00:13:47.280 --> 00:13:48.360 then I'm going to download it, 289 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.480 because that's a human-narrated book. 290 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:52.710 It's enjoyable. 291 00:13:52.710 --> 00:13:56.430 I just really love reading that way for pleasure. 292 00:13:56.430 --> 00:13:59.130 Although, oftentimes, I'm not reading for pleasure 293 00:13:59.130 --> 00:14:03.060 and, in that case, then I'm going to download the book 294 00:14:03.060 --> 00:14:04.920 as a digital text. 295 00:14:04.920 --> 00:14:08.760 Usually, I'll use something like Bookshare, but not always. 296 00:14:08.760 --> 00:14:10.500 I might just download something off 297 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:12.000 the internet or whatever, 298 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.880 and then I'm going to use text-to-speech. 299 00:14:14.880 --> 00:14:17.730 I'm going to have, it's usually my iPad. 300 00:14:17.730 --> 00:14:20.910 I'm either going to have voiceover read it to me 301 00:14:20.910 --> 00:14:24.480 or I'm going to use Voice Dream Reader 302 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:27.150 or one of the other apps that will read it, 303 00:14:27.150 --> 00:14:30.240 because I want to be able to go back 304 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:32.550 to reread certain sections. 305 00:14:32.550 --> 00:14:35.040 I want to be able to put a bookmark in. 306 00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:38.250 I still like to highlight and I like to add notes 307 00:14:38.250 --> 00:14:41.070 and you can do that with all of those different apps. 308 00:14:41.070 --> 00:14:44.130 So, you know, that's definitely the distinction 309 00:14:44.130 --> 00:14:46.140 between the two for the most part 310 00:14:46.140 --> 00:14:49.080 and I definitely have a preference for sure. 311 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:52.650 Yeah, and I'm much like you in that 312 00:14:52.650 --> 00:14:55.740 there are those same tools in my toolbox. 313 00:14:55.740 --> 00:15:00.480 So we mentioned Talking Books. That's the NLS Bard service 314 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:02.640 and we'll have information about that in our show notes 315 00:15:02.640 --> 00:15:03.570 of course. 316 00:15:03.570 --> 00:15:06.540 Bookshare, another service that allows you 317 00:15:06.540 --> 00:15:09.150 to download texts, but in all these cases, 318 00:15:09.150 --> 00:15:13.380 we're reading them either using, in your case, 319 00:15:13.380 --> 00:15:16.320 you could use magnification on your computer screen 320 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.270 or, again, text-to-speech. 321 00:15:18.270 --> 00:15:20.970 It just feels more efficient, 322 00:15:20.970 --> 00:15:24.390 especially if you have a situation where 323 00:15:24.390 --> 00:15:29.390 you have vision that is only good for so many hours, right? 324 00:15:30.540 --> 00:15:33.630 So if your eyes are getting tired, 325 00:15:33.630 --> 00:15:38.630 you want to use that vision for something that 326 00:15:38.700 --> 00:15:41.160 you don't have an alternative for. 327 00:15:41.160 --> 00:15:45.660 So reading in text-to-speech could be a lot easier 328 00:15:45.660 --> 00:15:50.660 on your eyes, whether or not you can still see 329 00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:52.110 that large print. 330 00:15:52.110 --> 00:15:55.140 So I think it's interesting that we do, again, 331 00:15:55.140 --> 00:15:58.200 have the same tools in our toolbox. 332 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.870 It's audio, whether it's text-to-speech 333 00:16:00.870 --> 00:16:03.570 or whether it's a human narrator. 334 00:16:03.570 --> 00:16:07.980 Did you have any techniques that got you more accustomed 335 00:16:07.980 --> 00:16:12.210 to not looking at that text as it was being read? 336 00:16:12.210 --> 00:16:15.480 Yes and no, and again, it wasn't really anything 337 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:17.550 that I can take any kind of credit for. 338 00:16:17.550 --> 00:16:21.420 It's one of those things where it came down to efficiency. 339 00:16:21.420 --> 00:16:24.660 When you start realizing that your efficiency 340 00:16:24.660 --> 00:16:28.260 using your vision is really slow, 341 00:16:28.260 --> 00:16:31.230 it becomes a lot more appealing to listen to it 342 00:16:31.230 --> 00:16:33.390 and, you know, that's part of that transition 343 00:16:33.390 --> 00:16:36.608 where maybe you might be kind of frustrated at the time 344 00:16:36.608 --> 00:16:40.994 and gosh knows I was and still am sometimes. 345 00:16:40.994 --> 00:16:43.890 As you start making progress with some of these 346 00:16:43.890 --> 00:16:47.280 other alternatives and you start realizing, oh, 347 00:16:47.280 --> 00:16:50.760 my efficiency with this is getting much higher if I, 348 00:16:50.760 --> 00:16:52.890 you know, turn on text-to-speech 349 00:16:52.890 --> 00:16:55.980 or if I, you know, get that narrated book 350 00:16:55.980 --> 00:16:58.980 to keep up in my book club or something like that. 351 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:02.100 That, I think, is kind of what moves us along, 352 00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:04.890 is just recognizing that this new path 353 00:17:04.890 --> 00:17:08.310 is a little bit easier and is a little less frustrating 354 00:17:08.310 --> 00:17:10.980 and we're actually getting the things done 355 00:17:10.980 --> 00:17:12.510 that we want to get done. 356 00:17:12.510 --> 00:17:15.630 So I think that's part of the process for those of us 357 00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:17.880 who aren't a little more proactive. 358 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:21.210 The proactive people are going to figure this out logically 359 00:17:21.210 --> 00:17:23.670 and make steps in that direction. 360 00:17:23.670 --> 00:17:26.250 Well, I guess it's no surprise that 361 00:17:26.250 --> 00:17:30.450 braille is going to come up on a Hadley podcast. 362 00:17:30.450 --> 00:17:33.660 I think it's the first thing that people think about 363 00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:35.610 when they start losing their vision. 364 00:17:35.610 --> 00:17:38.700 In some cases, it's the only thing they think. 365 00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:43.590 So there's probably this huge sense of overwhelm, like, 366 00:17:43.590 --> 00:17:46.890 okay, I am struggling to read print, 367 00:17:46.890 --> 00:17:49.530 so I have to learn braille. 368 00:17:49.530 --> 00:17:53.460 I have to learn it now and it is going to be the only 369 00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:58.240 method by which I'm ever able to read anything forever. 370 00:17:59.130 --> 00:18:01.650 It's a little more complex than that, right? 371 00:18:01.650 --> 00:18:06.650 So is there a way that braille can fit in 372 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:09.420 and have a logical place, 373 00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:12.000 and yet there are some other techniques as well? 374 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.940 So are there reasons that people might learn braille 375 00:18:14.940 --> 00:18:17.760 that don't involve reading everything 376 00:18:17.760 --> 00:18:20.010 in braille forevermore? 377 00:18:20.010 --> 00:18:23.010 When I first realized that what was going on 378 00:18:23.010 --> 00:18:25.050 with my vision was progressive 379 00:18:25.050 --> 00:18:27.180 and that I would get perhaps to a point 380 00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:28.710 where I was having trouble reading print 381 00:18:28.710 --> 00:18:31.800 the way I normally did, it was like the very first course 382 00:18:31.800 --> 00:18:34.170 I took at Hadley, once I'd figured out my way, 383 00:18:34.170 --> 00:18:36.930 and it was bumpy, but I got a braille course, 384 00:18:36.930 --> 00:18:39.750 because I assumed exactly what you said. 385 00:18:39.750 --> 00:18:42.360 Oh gosh, you know, my only opportunity 386 00:18:42.360 --> 00:18:43.860 is going to be braille. 387 00:18:43.860 --> 00:18:46.860 I was actually pleasantly surprised, you know, 388 00:18:46.860 --> 00:18:48.450 when I took the the braille course, 389 00:18:48.450 --> 00:18:51.330 which was just the alphabet in braille. 390 00:18:51.330 --> 00:18:55.020 It was actually simpler than what I thought 391 00:18:55.020 --> 00:18:57.330 and, at the same time, I thought, 392 00:18:57.330 --> 00:19:00.570 now how am I going to read a book in this? 393 00:19:00.570 --> 00:19:05.570 Because, you know, that piece of it was quite challenging. 394 00:19:05.670 --> 00:19:09.420 I think where braille fits in really well 395 00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:12.990 for somebody with low vision is for labeling, 396 00:19:12.990 --> 00:19:16.440 putting a quick label on something and, you know, 397 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:19.094 a letter or two that you just touch 398 00:19:19.094 --> 00:19:22.080 and right away you know, oh, this is the Advil 399 00:19:22.080 --> 00:19:25.410 or this is, you know, the cleaner that I want 400 00:19:25.410 --> 00:19:27.900 or whatever, you know, especially in places 401 00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:31.140 where, you know, it's dark underneath the cupboard 402 00:19:31.140 --> 00:19:32.640 or maybe in the freezer. 403 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:37.410 So there are plenty of places that braille can be used 404 00:19:37.410 --> 00:19:39.990 on a regular basis for somebody with low vision. 405 00:19:39.990 --> 00:19:43.440 They're probably not going to be literary braille readers, 406 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.600 but if that's something that they wanted to pursue, 407 00:19:45.600 --> 00:19:46.920 of course, yeah. 408 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.680 The other thing that people don't realize is 409 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.910 you've got a whole world of braille with braille displays, 410 00:19:53.910 --> 00:19:55.470 you know, connected to the computer. 411 00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:59.700 So you know, a lot of folks who are, like, real readers 412 00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:02.940 or real literary people may actually, 413 00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:06.210 even with low vision, want to learn, get to that place 414 00:20:06.210 --> 00:20:08.190 where they're literary braille readers 415 00:20:08.190 --> 00:20:10.530 with their braille displays, because again, 416 00:20:10.530 --> 00:20:13.860 it might be more efficient or more enjoyable for them. 417 00:20:13.860 --> 00:20:14.970 Wow, I love that. 418 00:20:14.970 --> 00:20:19.020 Just a whole spectrum of ways to use braille 419 00:20:19.020 --> 00:20:23.130 and we do have courses for learning braille, 420 00:20:23.130 --> 00:20:26.580 both visually and tactile braille, 421 00:20:26.580 --> 00:20:30.210 that still can involve some of your vision, 422 00:20:30.210 --> 00:20:31.350 if you still have it. 423 00:20:31.350 --> 00:20:35.460 Those initial lessons will engage both your eyes 424 00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:37.260 and your fingers. 425 00:20:37.260 --> 00:20:40.260 So if you're looking to learn braille, 426 00:20:40.260 --> 00:20:42.330 you know, you've come to the right place 427 00:20:42.330 --> 00:20:45.510 and Hadley's got you covered for that. 428 00:20:45.510 --> 00:20:48.960 But we have talked about not just braille, 429 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.100 but magnifiers, text-to-speech, smartphones, 430 00:20:53.100 --> 00:20:57.900 Talking Books, digital books, this huge list 431 00:20:57.900 --> 00:21:00.597 of things and all the different types of magnifiers, 432 00:21:00.597 --> 00:21:03.060 and if somebody's sitting there going, 433 00:21:03.060 --> 00:21:06.060 I heard a lot of information 434 00:21:06.060 --> 00:21:08.970 and some of it might apply to me, 435 00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:12.720 but I'm feeling really overwhelmed just thinking about this. 436 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:16.530 Where am I even supposed to start and what do I do? 437 00:21:16.530 --> 00:21:21.120 So how can someone figure out where to start? 438 00:21:21.120 --> 00:21:24.360 How do they try some of these options 439 00:21:24.360 --> 00:21:29.070 without just shutting down and feeling like it's too much? 440 00:21:29.070 --> 00:21:31.860 I think the very first thing that I would do, 441 00:21:31.860 --> 00:21:34.800 and we'll put this in the resources, I'm sure, 442 00:21:34.800 --> 00:21:38.100 I would get a hold of the National Library Service 443 00:21:38.100 --> 00:21:40.650 Talking Book Program and here's why. 444 00:21:40.650 --> 00:21:43.650 The reason I'm suggesting the National Library Service is, 445 00:21:43.650 --> 00:21:44.910 one, it's free. 446 00:21:44.910 --> 00:21:48.300 Two, the Talking Book player is probably 447 00:21:48.300 --> 00:21:51.090 one of the easiest machines that you will ever 448 00:21:51.090 --> 00:21:52.080 learn how to use. 449 00:21:52.080 --> 00:21:53.400 You can literally pick it up 450 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:55.530 and use it the minute you get it. 451 00:21:55.530 --> 00:21:57.390 There's no charge for it. 452 00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:00.990 You can get library books. You can get magazines 453 00:22:00.990 --> 00:22:03.450 and here's the plug for Hadley too. 454 00:22:03.450 --> 00:22:07.260 Of course you can also get many of our workshops 455 00:22:07.260 --> 00:22:09.270 right on the Talking Book cartridges 456 00:22:09.270 --> 00:22:11.790 that play in the machine. 457 00:22:11.790 --> 00:22:13.770 So the reason that I'm suggesting that 458 00:22:13.770 --> 00:22:17.490 as priority number one is because it will take you 459 00:22:17.490 --> 00:22:21.480 to the next steps, whatever those next steps happen to be. 460 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.030 You know, you may not use it later on, 461 00:22:24.030 --> 00:22:26.580 but it will help you get to those next steps. 462 00:22:26.580 --> 00:22:28.440 So that would be priority one. 463 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:31.080 The second thing, Ricky, I would suggest is 464 00:22:31.080 --> 00:22:33.510 I would suggest people get in touch 465 00:22:33.510 --> 00:22:37.650 with their state vocational rehab agency 466 00:22:37.650 --> 00:22:41.880 or their department on aging, and every state's got one, 467 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.120 and those are the places where you're going to find 468 00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:48.720 some additional training, maybe some demonstrations 469 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:50.370 for some of these devices, 470 00:22:50.370 --> 00:22:53.992 and the quickest and easiest way I can think of to do that 471 00:22:53.992 --> 00:22:58.080 is to call me, and I do this on a regular basis, 472 00:22:58.080 --> 00:22:59.550 and I'll look it up for you 473 00:22:59.550 --> 00:23:01.980 and give you that information as well. 474 00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:04.140 But the reason I'm saying that is you want to get 475 00:23:04.140 --> 00:23:06.660 an assessment for some of these things. 476 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:09.060 So many people, as I mentioned before, 477 00:23:09.060 --> 00:23:10.980 have that magnifier that's not working. 478 00:23:10.980 --> 00:23:12.120 It's in the top drawer. 479 00:23:12.120 --> 00:23:14.010 They don't use it and they don't use it 480 00:23:14.010 --> 00:23:16.020 because it was the wrong one. 481 00:23:16.020 --> 00:23:19.440 Get someone from one of those agencies to come out. 482 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.390 There's usually no charge for it. 483 00:23:21.390 --> 00:23:22.470 Have an assessment. 484 00:23:22.470 --> 00:23:25.830 Figure out what it is that's going to work best for you, 485 00:23:25.830 --> 00:23:30.830 and also find out about that broad spectrum of stuff 486 00:23:30.870 --> 00:23:33.630 that's out there that will keep you reading. 487 00:23:33.630 --> 00:23:36.360 There's a bunch of it and they know more about it 488 00:23:36.360 --> 00:23:40.380 than you do, so you can learn something from them. 489 00:23:40.380 --> 00:23:42.180 That's really well said. 490 00:23:42.180 --> 00:23:47.180 It's great to know that there are so many resources, 491 00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:50.700 'cause I think that's one thing that people struggle with 492 00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:55.700 is they know that they're having trouble with something, 493 00:23:56.490 --> 00:23:58.260 but now what? 494 00:23:58.260 --> 00:24:00.120 Where am I supposed to go? 495 00:24:00.120 --> 00:24:02.400 What questions do I even ask? 496 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:04.530 I don't know what I don't know. 497 00:24:04.530 --> 00:24:07.770 I think half the battle is just figuring out 498 00:24:07.770 --> 00:24:09.570 what some of the options are and knowing 499 00:24:09.570 --> 00:24:11.370 that you do have options. 500 00:24:11.370 --> 00:24:14.011 Well Steve, thank you so much for 501 00:24:14.011 --> 00:24:16.290 sharing your experience 502 00:24:16.290 --> 00:24:19.020 and just the ideas that you have about things 503 00:24:19.020 --> 00:24:21.300 that people might try. 504 00:24:21.300 --> 00:24:24.510 The show notes are going to have a ton of information 505 00:24:24.510 --> 00:24:29.460 for you to check out, if you're wondering where to start. 506 00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:33.360 If all that is maybe a little bit much, 507 00:24:33.360 --> 00:24:37.380 Hadley's always here to point you to the right things. 508 00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:39.966 We'd love to have a conversation with you, 509 00:24:39.966 --> 00:24:43.140 so do give us a call and, again, 510 00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:45.390 happy to point you in the right direction. 511 00:24:45.390 --> 00:24:46.830 Well, it's always great chatting with you, Ricky. 512 00:24:46.830 --> 00:24:47.663 Thank you. 513 00:24:47.663 --> 00:24:49.470 Thanks so much, Steve. 514 00:24:49.470 --> 00:24:51.030 Got something to say? 515 00:24:51.030 --> 00:24:54.090 Share your thoughts about this episode of "Hadley Presents" 516 00:24:54.090 --> 00:24:56.670 or make suggestions for future episodes. 517 00:24:56.670 --> 00:24:58.290 We'd love to hear from you. 518 00:24:58.290 --> 00:25:02.580 Send us an email at podcast@hadley.edu. 519 00:25:02.580 --> 00:25:07.580 That's P-O-D-C-A-S-T @hadley.edu. 520 00:25:07.830 --> 00:25:11.973 Or leave us a message at 847-784-2870. 521 00:25:14.250 --> 00:25:15.363 Thanks for listening.