WEBVTT

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(bright music)

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Welcome to "Hadley Presents."

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I'm your host, Ricky Enger, inviting you to sit back, relax,

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and enjoy a conversation with the experts.

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In this episode, we discuss technology

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and navigating life with low vision,

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and our guest is YouTube personality, Sam Seavey.

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Welcome to the show, Sam.

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Hey, Ricky, thank you so much for having me.

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Absolutely. It's awesome to have you here.

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Now, of course, I introduced you as a YouTube personality,

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as if that were the sum total of your existence,

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and it's not, so before we jump into things,

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why don't you just tell us a bit about yourself

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and how you came to do what you do,

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both in terms of YouTube and kind of

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what you do outside of that?

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Well, first, I actually prefer YouTube Superstar,

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if you don't mind.

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You should have gotten an email before the show

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letting you know that's what I prefer to be called,

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but, no, (laughs) well, yeah, so,

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it's a very long story how I got to this point.

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People always like to kind of hear my vision story,

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I guess you could say.

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I was diagnosed at age 11 with Stargardt's disease.

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It's kind of an early onset form of macular degeneration,

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kind of, except that it's a inherited retinal disease.

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So, myself and my sister both got it.

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We're the only two kids in the family,

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and we both drew the genetic short straw

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and (chuckles) got Stargardt's.

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Actually I was just at up in Philadelphia

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doing a presentation this past weekend,

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and I told the crowd that

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and I got a lot of, "Oh, oh, that's too bad," you know?

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And I said, "You know what?

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"Yeah, maybe at first you might think that,

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"but it was actually a good thing

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"because at least I had somebody there

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"to kind of go through all of this with,

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"to grow up and we were both going through it

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"and experiencing it together,

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"and we had each other's backs."

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So, it actually made it much easier, I think.

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Fast forwarding, skipping all the drama of,

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you know, going through the public school system

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and all of that with (chuckles) low vision,

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maybe that'd be the next podcast.

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I started making videos on YouTube back in

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right around 2010, I guess.

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I started making videos for another YouTube channel,

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some guy down in Texas who made videos

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about mobile technology, namely Android systems,

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and he needed help making the videos.

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And I needed a job,

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and I specifically needed a job that

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I could kind of tailor-fit to my own needs.

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And I thought, "Well, this might be it."

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You know, I could set up a camera rig in my house.

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I actually had a camera strapped

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to my CCTV pointing down at the table.

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So, as I was seeing the phone,

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'cause I was reviewing apps and phone software and stuff,

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as I was looking at the phone on the screen of the CCTV,

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the camera was also recording the phone screen

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for my YouTube video.

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So, it worked out perfectly.

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And I did that for several years, making videos.

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Those videos are still out there,

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people can go check them out.

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The channel was called "Mobile Tech Videos 2," numeral two.

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They are super old now,

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none of them really are relevant anymore,

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but you can go check 'em out. (laughs)

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And then shortly after that I started my own channel

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because there was a real lack

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of information on YouTube at the time

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about people living with low vision.

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And I especially was looking

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for information about Stargardt's,

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and I couldn't really find anything.

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So I thought, "Well, you know,

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"maybe I'll start documenting my life

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"and just see what happens."

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Yeah. If there's not content out there

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that you're hoping to see, why not create it yourself?

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And it looks like that's really been a success.

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So, your YouTube channel is called "The Blind Life."

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There are lots of great videos there,

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really spanning a whole range

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of technology and devices and things.

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So what kinds of things can people find on your channel?

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My main focus is assistive technology

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because in my day job,

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I'm an assistive technology specialist.

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I work with clients every day,

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teaching them how to use technology

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and software and all of that.

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I've used technology since I was a kid,

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assistive technology, so it's what I love.

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So that's the main thing you can find on there.

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Product reviews, technology reviews, tutorials.

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But I also like to focus on the life side of the blind life

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and the everyday life,

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and helping people navigate those waters.

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My videos are really helpful for people

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who are new to vision loss.

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You know, maybe they're seniors losing vision later in life,

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AMD, Age-related Macular Degeneration,

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diabetic retinopathy, those types of things.

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And they don't know how to be visually impaired.

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It's not something we're born with knowing

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unless you're born blind, obviously,

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but, you know, it's something you have to be taught.

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And, so, I have tons of tutorial videos,

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even little things like, you know,

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how to scramble some eggs,

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how to crack open an egg without getting shells everywhere,

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you know, and because if you get shells in your eggs,

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you're not gonna be able to tell (laughs)

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until you bite down into it.

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So, and, I show accessible products,

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even everyday household products.

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I have a whole series called "My Accessible House"

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where I feature things that I've done in my house

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to make my life easier, extra lighting,

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bright lights in cabinets,

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motion-activated lights in certain areas

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where as when I just walk in,

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the light automatically turns on.

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So, just things like that.

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That's fantastic.

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And I think it's incredibly useful for people,

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as you say, who are new to vision loss

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or even people who may have been at this for a while,

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but not everyone can buy or review everything.

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And, so, having a place to go

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where someone has taken a look at various things

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or used even standard things, I suppose,

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in a unique way to help with vision loss,

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I think it's really helpful for people.

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Are there things that you have learned along the way?

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I mean, you've been at this for a little while,

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given that you were diagnosed at 11.

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So, just along your own vision loss journey,

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are there things that you didn't initially know

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that you've learned along the way

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that have really helped you to be maybe more efficient

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or get things done in a different way

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than you did as a child?

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Yeah, so, as I said, I diagnosed at age 11.

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I was legally blind by my early teens.

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And much like a lot of people who are

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in a similar situation where I'm not totally blind,

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I do still have partial sight

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and I still have some usable sight.

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So, unless I'm walking around with my cane,

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you know, people might not instantly recognize

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that I'm visually impaired, or I have a vision impairment.

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I always say we're kind of riding the fence

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between the sighted world and the blind world

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in that situation.

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It can be difficult, especially in my twenties.

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I really didn't want to be vision impaired.

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I wanted to be just like everybody else.

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I wanted to be, you know, I didn't wanna be different.

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I didn't wanna stand out.

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I struggled with that like many,

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many people do in that situation.

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It's exhausting.

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And I was probably in my thirties

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before I finally just said, "I'm done.

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"I'm done pretending, this is who I am.

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"There's nothing wrong with who I am."

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It can't be fixed, my condition is incorrectable.

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There's no treatments, you know,

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why am I wasting my time trying to be something I'm not?

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I just need to embrace it and live my best life.

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And, so, when I finally did that,

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it was like a weight off my shoulders

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and I could just start enjoying my life

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and living for the day.

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And so that's probably the biggest thing

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I have learned is to not sweat the little things every day.

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And, don't get me wrong, I'm not, (laughs)

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you know, completely well-adjusted.

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I still have my bad days, well, like we all do,

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where I'm just like, "Oh, I hate being blind."

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Oh, you know, anytime I want to make a meal

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and I have to go find my magnifier in order to read the box,

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it's, like, I have to go searching through the house now

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to find a magnifier just so I can make this real quickly.

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(Sam laughs)

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It's like, "Oh, come on."

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But at the end of the day,

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I don't let things like that get me down too often.

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Or if I'm walking around outside with my cane

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and I see somebody's kind of giving me a weird look.

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It doesn't bother me because it's just, I know who I am.

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I know my own worth.

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I know what I'm capable of.

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And that's more important to me than

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what some stranger might think or say

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or, you know, so, own your own truth and be yourself

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and go out and reach for your goals and live your life.

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That's kind of what I've learned.

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And is that something you wish

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someone had told you as a child?

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Or maybe you wouldn't have (chuckles) been ready

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to listen to it at that point?

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It's something that you had to learn along the way.

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Is there anything beyond that

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that you would say to somebody

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who's brand new to vision Loss

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and they're just in that period of figuring out

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what life is going to be like,

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and figuring out all of the challenges

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that do come with vision loss?

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Is there one thing that you could say to them

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that might make things just that little bit easier?

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You're right.

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I don't know if I would've listened to (laughs)

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someone at that time in my twenties.

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It really, it was, I credit it to my wife,

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and her tough love telling me I was being ridiculous.

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And to knock it off.
(both laugh)

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We all need someone like that in our lives, right?

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Absolutely. Absolutely.

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But, what I tell people is,

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and I get these comments usually on Facebook,

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and it's usually from parents of children

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who have recently been diagnosed

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and they're really struggling

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because they can't imagine

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what their child's life is gonna be like.

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They can't see it.

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And all they can see is all the things

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their child won't do.

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All the dreams they had for their child

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that they think won't happen now because of the diagnosis.

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And I've actually made a whole video, "What Comes Next?"

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And the very first thing I say in that video,

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and it's the very first thing I tell people all the time is,

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"It's gonna be okay, it's gonna (chuckles) be all right.

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"I know it's scary, I know it's terrifying,

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"but it's gonna be okay.

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"Your child, or yourself, or you're gonna be all right.

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"You're gonna get through this."

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Vision loss is just learning a new way to do things.

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And once you learn those new ways,

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you can do whatever you want to.

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Now, don't get me wrong,

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it's not easy and it's gonna take some time.

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You know, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

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And you're gonna have those bad days

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and you're gonna have those emotional days,

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and that's totally fine.

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Like I said, I work a lot with people

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who are losing vision later in life,

261
00:11:21.570 --> 00:11:24.667
and I tell them, "You're going through a grieving process

262
00:11:24.667 --> 00:11:26.527
"because you've lost something.

263
00:11:26.527 --> 00:11:28.537
"You've had this your whole life

264
00:11:28.537 --> 00:11:30.210
"and now it's starting to go away."

265
00:11:30.210 --> 00:11:32.370
And so there's that feeling of loss,

266
00:11:32.370 --> 00:11:33.390
and you gotta go through all

267
00:11:33.390 --> 00:11:34.680
those different stages of grief,

268
00:11:34.680 --> 00:11:36.330
and that's perfectly normal.

269
00:11:36.330 --> 00:11:38.820
And you have to do that,

270
00:11:38.820 --> 00:11:40.950
in order to come out on the other side.

271
00:11:40.950 --> 00:11:42.540
And you don't have to rush it.

272
00:11:42.540 --> 00:11:44.730
You can take as much time as you want,

273
00:11:44.730 --> 00:11:47.400
but the goal is to keep moving forward

274
00:11:47.400 --> 00:11:49.560
and to come out on the other side.

275
00:11:49.560 --> 00:11:51.510
I was just actually at this conference

276
00:11:51.510 --> 00:11:53.430
that I was just mentioned over the weekend,

277
00:11:53.430 --> 00:11:55.980
one of the other speakers, Kristin Smedley,

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00:11:55.980 --> 00:11:58.380
who is amazing, Thriving Blind Academy,

279
00:11:58.380 --> 00:12:00.420
she's done a TED Talk.

280
00:12:00.420 --> 00:12:01.260
She's fantastic.

281
00:12:01.260 --> 00:12:05.160
She has two boys that were born with LCA,

282
00:12:05.160 --> 00:12:08.160
and so they were two blind sons.

283
00:12:08.160 --> 00:12:11.677
One thing she talked about is, "You're coming to your grief

284
00:12:11.677 --> 00:12:14.077
"and you've got your bags,

285
00:12:14.077 --> 00:12:16.477
"and are you just staying for a short time?

286
00:12:16.477 --> 00:12:18.960
"Or are you gonna unpack and you're gonna live there?"

287
00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:21.450
And then she says she lived there for a long time

288
00:12:21.450 --> 00:12:24.000
before she finally came through it.

289
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.047
And that's what I tell people.

290
00:12:25.047 --> 00:12:27.607
I was like, "You can stay there as long as you need to,

291
00:12:27.607 --> 00:12:30.097
"but you have to get through it at some point.

292
00:12:30.097 --> 00:12:31.627
"You can't live there because

293
00:12:31.627 --> 00:12:32.857
"that's not doing anybody good.

294
00:12:32.857 --> 00:12:34.740
"That's definitely not doing you any good."

295
00:12:34.740 --> 00:12:35.573
Thank you for that.

296
00:12:35.573 --> 00:12:36.660
And it's such an important thing

297
00:12:36.660 --> 00:12:39.930
to acknowledge that not everybody's

298
00:12:39.930 --> 00:12:41.910
adjustment period is the same.

299
00:12:41.910 --> 00:12:44.857
There's this feeling, I suppose, that,

300
00:12:44.857 --> 00:12:47.557
"Okay, there's this timeline

301
00:12:47.557 --> 00:12:50.947
"and if you haven't made it through your adjustment period

302
00:12:50.947 --> 00:12:53.610
"in that timeline, you're totally doing it wrong."

303
00:12:53.610 --> 00:12:56.296
But, no, it is such an individual thing

304
00:12:56.296 --> 00:12:59.580
and the thing to keep in mind is just

305
00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:01.260
to keep moving forward.

306
00:13:01.260 --> 00:13:04.620
In the end, you'll get there and you can do things.

307
00:13:04.620 --> 00:13:07.050
It's mostly about determination

308
00:13:07.050 --> 00:13:09.580
and having that drive to do that.

309
00:13:09.580 --> 00:13:11.220
And I tell people all the time,

310
00:13:11.220 --> 00:13:14.100
it's just a matter of learning the new way to do it,

311
00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:15.360
the new normal.

312
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:19.080
But once you do, you can achieve amazing things.

313
00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:20.721
So, the last question I have is

314
00:13:20.721 --> 00:13:22.350
probably no surprise

315
00:13:22.350 --> 00:13:26.040
to anybody who has listened to this show before.

316
00:13:26.040 --> 00:13:28.980
And I want to talk about gadgets,

317
00:13:28.980 --> 00:13:32.340
'cause I really love them and I'm into technology. (laughs)

318
00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:35.430
You've had the opportunity to review a number

319
00:13:35.430 --> 00:13:37.380
of things on your channel,

320
00:13:37.380 --> 00:13:38.850
sort of the premise of the channel

321
00:13:38.850 --> 00:13:42.450
is navigating the blind life.

322
00:13:42.450 --> 00:13:45.120
So, theoretically, at least,

323
00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.340
some of these devices have made their way

324
00:13:47.340 --> 00:13:50.160
into your everyday rotation.

325
00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:52.770
They're things that you pick up and use on the daily.

326
00:13:52.770 --> 00:13:56.520
So, are there a couple of gadgets or devices

327
00:13:56.520 --> 00:13:59.790
or whatever that you really love and, you know,

328
00:13:59.790 --> 00:14:02.250
what are they and what makes you love them?

329
00:14:02.250 --> 00:14:04.320
Yes, I have been very fortunate

330
00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.900
to try just about everything out there.

331
00:14:06.900 --> 00:14:10.890
I'm to the point where companies send me new things

332
00:14:10.890 --> 00:14:13.620
and prototypes, and so I get to see 'em

333
00:14:13.620 --> 00:14:16.200
even before they're out there for the rest of the public,

334
00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:17.033
which is really cool.

335
00:14:17.033 --> 00:14:21.240
But, yeah, I've got a couple, a couple tools in my tool belt

336
00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:22.923
that I use every single day.

337
00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:25.200
I still, like I said before,

338
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.570
I still rely heavily on magnification.

339
00:14:27.570 --> 00:14:31.713
So, I have an Eschenbach pocket magnifier,

340
00:14:33.371 --> 00:14:36.720
I think the name brand or the name is Mobilent,

341
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.510
or something weird like that, I don't know. (laughs)

342
00:14:39.510 --> 00:14:41.670
But it's just this little,

343
00:14:41.670 --> 00:14:44.520
I think it's a 12X pocket magnifier.

344
00:14:44.520 --> 00:14:45.870
The lens is about the size of

345
00:14:45.870 --> 00:14:47.640
a silver dollar or half dollar,

346
00:14:47.640 --> 00:14:50.490
which is actually the largest size lens

347
00:14:50.490 --> 00:14:53.820
at that strength that I've ever been able to find.

348
00:14:53.820 --> 00:14:57.243
And Eschenbach just makes really high quality magnifiers,

349
00:14:58.140 --> 00:15:01.950
this guy is with me in my pocket at all times.

350
00:15:01.950 --> 00:15:05.370
I just picked it up off my desk audio description.

351
00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:10.230
Sam just removed the magnifier from his desk. (laughs)

352
00:15:10.230 --> 00:15:13.920
Even when I'm sleeping, it's on the nightstand next to me.

353
00:15:13.920 --> 00:15:16.740
If I take a shower, it's on a counter, bathroom counter.

354
00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:19.020
So this is always within reach.

355
00:15:19.020 --> 00:15:23.850
But for those things that I can't see with the magnifier,

356
00:15:23.850 --> 00:15:26.760
I actually really like the OrCam.

357
00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:29.250
I use the Orca Read,

358
00:15:29.250 --> 00:15:31.920
and it's the handheld version of the OrCam.

359
00:15:31.920 --> 00:15:34.140
It kind of looks like a large magic marker

360
00:15:34.140 --> 00:15:35.310
and has physical buttons,

361
00:15:35.310 --> 00:15:38.700
which makes it easier for a lot of people to use.

362
00:15:38.700 --> 00:15:39.600
That thing is great.

363
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.700
I think OrCam is really leading the way

364
00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:45.060
in OCR technology in the market,

365
00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:47.490
as far as speed and accuracy.

366
00:15:47.490 --> 00:15:49.380
And it's all offline OCR,

367
00:15:49.380 --> 00:15:52.260
which means there's no issues with security.

368
00:15:52.260 --> 00:15:55.110
You know, I can scan my bank statement

369
00:15:55.110 --> 00:15:57.180
and nobody else is getting that information.

370
00:15:57.180 --> 00:15:59.597
It's just me, so it's great.

371
00:15:59.597 --> 00:16:01.290
Right? I mean (chuckles) for me,

372
00:16:01.290 --> 00:16:05.130
OCR is probably the best thing since sliced bread.

373
00:16:05.130 --> 00:16:06.570
You know, we're tech people,

374
00:16:06.570 --> 00:16:09.090
so, we just start throwing these acronyms

375
00:16:09.090 --> 00:16:10.200
around like they're nothing.

376
00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:13.620
And people are probably like, "What is OCR?"

377
00:16:13.620 --> 00:16:17.460
So it stands for Optical Character Recognition.

378
00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:22.290
But what it does is it will take the print,

379
00:16:22.290 --> 00:16:26.700
like on your product boxes or brochures or birthday cards,

380
00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:28.650
or books or whatever,

381
00:16:28.650 --> 00:16:32.760
it will convert that print into text

382
00:16:32.760 --> 00:16:36.330
that you can then have read aloud by your device,

383
00:16:36.330 --> 00:16:38.970
or it can be a document that you save.

384
00:16:38.970 --> 00:16:41.250
So, yeah, it's really powerful stuff.

385
00:16:41.250 --> 00:16:44.100
And OrCam is great at this.

386
00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:48.000
You probably have other devices that do this too, right?

387
00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:49.230
Obviously I've got a smartphone.

388
00:16:49.230 --> 00:16:51.540
I actually have two smartphones I carry around (laughs),

389
00:16:51.540 --> 00:16:53.583
an iPhone and a Samsung phone.

390
00:16:54.937 --> 00:16:55.830
Since I'm an AT trainer,

391
00:16:55.830 --> 00:17:00.150
I have to know how both systems work, Android and iOS,

392
00:17:00.150 --> 00:17:02.310
so, I carry both phones,

393
00:17:02.310 --> 00:17:05.910
and I see the benefit in both if anybody's curious,

394
00:17:05.910 --> 00:17:08.550
my opinion on Android versus Apple.

395
00:17:08.550 --> 00:17:11.670
I do have videos on those (laughs)

396
00:17:11.670 --> 00:17:15.137
that debate that's raged for eons.

397
00:17:15.137 --> 00:17:17.640
And, then, I guess I don't use,

398
00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:18.905
actually I don't use too much

399
00:17:18.905 --> 00:17:22.020
technology in my everyday life.

400
00:17:22.020 --> 00:17:23.220
I'm a cane user.

401
00:17:23.220 --> 00:17:25.800
I mainly use my cane for identification.

402
00:17:25.800 --> 00:17:28.890
I have night blindness, so if it's low-light situations,

403
00:17:28.890 --> 00:17:32.120
I use my cane for detecting changes

404
00:17:32.120 --> 00:17:35.490
in the ground terrain and elevation and all that,

405
00:17:35.490 --> 00:17:36.870
steps and curves and stuff.

406
00:17:36.870 --> 00:17:39.930
But, I use the Omni-Sense cane tip,

407
00:17:39.930 --> 00:17:42.120
which is my favorite cane tip.

408
00:17:42.120 --> 00:17:44.040
It's a rolling cane tip,

409
00:17:44.040 --> 00:17:47.010
it has wheels that can roll in any direction.

410
00:17:47.010 --> 00:17:50.970
It's really allowed me to do some pretty cool stuff.

411
00:17:50.970 --> 00:17:52.680
I actually have videos of me skating

412
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:54.840
around a skate park going up and down the ramps

413
00:17:54.840 --> 00:17:57.270
using the Omni-Sense tip,

414
00:17:57.270 --> 00:17:59.250
which is something I've never been able to do

415
00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:02.580
because I can't see the ramp, I can't tell where it is.

416
00:18:02.580 --> 00:18:05.190
But the Omni-Sense, because it rolls so smoothly,

417
00:18:05.190 --> 00:18:08.640
it lets me know when the ramp's going up before I get there.

418
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:09.660
It works great.

419
00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:10.530
That's awesome.

420
00:18:10.530 --> 00:18:13.320
And we'll have links to all of the products mentioned

421
00:18:13.320 --> 00:18:14.490
here in our show notes,

422
00:18:14.490 --> 00:18:19.490
as well as to your website and YouTube channel.

423
00:18:19.710 --> 00:18:23.760
So, "The Blind Life" YouTube channel, theblindlife.net,

424
00:18:23.760 --> 00:18:26.820
I believe, is your website.

425
00:18:26.820 --> 00:18:28.650
Yeah, lots of stuff clearly

426
00:18:28.650 --> 00:18:31.710
that people can find videos on technology

427
00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:34.440
and, of course, videos (chuckles) of you skating around

428
00:18:34.440 --> 00:18:38.040
and all kinds of just amazing, fun stuff.

429
00:18:38.040 --> 00:18:40.920
Any final thoughts that you wanna leave listeners with

430
00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:42.990
as we wrap up here, Sam?

431
00:18:42.990 --> 00:18:45.480
Learning anything new is all about

432
00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:49.050
getting in the information and sticking with it.

433
00:18:49.050 --> 00:18:51.630
Practice, practice makes perfect,

434
00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:56.040
that's no different from learning some new technology

435
00:18:56.040 --> 00:18:59.340
or learning how to use a cane, anything.

436
00:18:59.340 --> 00:19:00.930
The more you do it, the easier it gets.

437
00:19:00.930 --> 00:19:01.763
So just stick with it.

438
00:19:01.763 --> 00:19:03.270
It will be frustrating at first,

439
00:19:03.270 --> 00:19:05.280
just like everything is learning something new,

440
00:19:05.280 --> 00:19:08.430
but even slowly it gets easier and easier.

441
00:19:08.430 --> 00:19:11.100
And definitely check out my channel.

442
00:19:11.100 --> 00:19:13.110
I have over 700 videos on my channel,

443
00:19:13.110 --> 00:19:17.130
all about this, blindness and low vision.

444
00:19:17.130 --> 00:19:20.460
And I love "Hadley," big fan of "Hadley." (laughs)

445
00:19:20.460 --> 00:19:24.150
We love to hear that for sure, thank you. (laughs)

446
00:19:24.150 --> 00:19:28.050
And thank you for spending a little time with us

447
00:19:28.050 --> 00:19:31.590
and certainly those videos will keep our listeners busy

448
00:19:31.590 --> 00:19:33.270
for a good little while.

449
00:19:33.270 --> 00:19:36.480
Thanks again, Sam, for stopping by and chatting

450
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:37.440
and sharing your story.

451
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.840
Yeah, it was my pleasure, Ricky, thank you so much.

452
00:19:39.840 --> 00:19:41.400
Anytime.
(gentle music)

453
00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:42.930
Got something to say,

454
00:19:42.930 --> 00:19:46.020
share your thoughts about this episode of "Hadley Presents,"

455
00:19:46.020 --> 00:19:48.570
or make suggestions for future episodes.

456
00:19:48.570 --> 00:19:50.220
We'd love to hear from you.

457
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:54.480
Send us an email@podcastathadley.edu.

458
00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:59.480
That's P-O-D-C-A-S-T @hadley.edu.

459
00:19:59.730 --> 00:20:02.737
Or, leave us a message at 847-784-2870.

460
00:20:06.120 --> 00:20:07.580
Thanks for listening.

461
00:20:07.580 --> 00:20:10.663
(gentle music fades)