WEBVTT

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(upbeat music)

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Welcome to Hadley Presents.

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I'm your host, Ricky Enger,

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inviting you to sit back, relax,

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and enjoy a conversation with the experts.

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In this episode, Ed McDaniel and Jeff Flodin

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join us to discuss guide dogs.

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Welcome to the show, both of you.

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Thank you, Ricky. Hi, Ed.

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Thank you.

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So delighted to have you both.

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And you both have appeared on Hadley properties

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on various topics here and there.

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But for those who don't know you,

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why don't we just get a couple of introductions

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out of the way?

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So tell us a bit about yourself and then,

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of course, the reason that we're all here,

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we want to hear about your guide dog.

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So Ed, let's start with you.

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I'm sixty-years-old

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and I live in Morganton, North Carolina.

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I'm a semi-retired psychologist.

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I do have a couple of part-time jobs,

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and I do quite a bit of volunteer work,

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my favorite being facilitating

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a vision loss support group.

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I have Usher Syndrome 2A,

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which means I was born hard of hearing,

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and I have retinitis pigmentosa.

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I have less than five degrees of visual field.

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And more recently,

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I've been starting to lose acuity in one eye.

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Gotcha.

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And how about your dog?

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My dog is Serena.

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She's four-years-old.

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She's a black lab.

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I got her two years ago

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from Guiding Eyes for the Blind

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in Yorktown Heights, New York.

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She sounds lovely.

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All right, Jeff, how about you?

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Tell us about yourself and, of course, your dog.

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My name is Jeff Flodin,

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and I was a social worker.

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I'm semi-retired.

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Like Ed, I facilitate a low vision support group.

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I also write a blog

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called Jalapenos in the Oatmeal,

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Digesting Vision Loss.

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And I've been doing that for about 12 years

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on a bi-weekly basis.

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I was diagnosed with RP when I was 36-years-old,

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declared legally blind when I was 43,

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cane-trained when I was 45,

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and got my first dog when I was 52.

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I'm now on my third dog.

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The first two came from the Seeing Eye

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in Morristown, New Jersey.

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And Tundra was from a school called OccuPaws

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based in Madison, Wisconsin.

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I chose that school because at the time

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I was living in Chicago,

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so OccuPaws sent a trainer and Tundra to me,

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and we trained in Chicago for a couple of weeks,

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and then COVID hit.

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So that was a big impact on putting mileage,

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getting miles in with Tundra.

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Yes, and I'm still stuck on Tundra

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as a sort of a mode of transportation

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just like the Toyota Tundra,

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so I love that.

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And what breed is she?

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Oh, like Ed's dog,

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Tundra is a black lab.

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And the three I've had

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have been a golden retriever

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and now, two black labs.

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Love it.

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Black labs are wonderful.

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My dog retired in 2016,

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but his name was Eddie,

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and he was from Southeastern Guide Dogs,

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and he too was a black lab.

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So yeah, black labs represent.

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So I know that there are

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a lot of misconceptions that I think

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the general public has about guide dogs,

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and then even people who are thinking

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about getting a guide dog,

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they may have these ideas

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that just turn out not to be right.

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So I'm wondering if we can discuss that.

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I know one thing that I hear a lot

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is that you don't really need any training

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in how to travel.

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So no orientation and mobility training,

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no information on how to think about your surroundings,

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how to use your senses,

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how to get from one place to another without a dog.

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So a lot of people think, oh,

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as soon as I lose some vision,

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I can get a dog and,

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you know, the dog fixes everything.

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So that's the one that I hear most often.

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Ed, do you have one that comes up a lot

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that you've heard from either the public

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or maybe you had yourself?

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I think one of the misconceptions

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is that you have to be completely blind

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to get a guide dog.

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And that certainly wasn't the case for me,

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I still have some central vision.

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So I think that's a misconception for people

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using guide dogs and even canes as well.

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Yeah, that's a good one.

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That's a really common one.

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And in fact, we will talk about some of that a bit later

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in terms of working with a dog

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and still having some usable vision.

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Jeff, do you have one to add to that?

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Yes, I do.

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I think one misconception that I had

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was that a dog would cost about $50,000

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for the student to purchase.

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And fortunately, with the subsidies

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and the fact that most of these schools

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have endowments, that was not the case.

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So the good thing was that guide dogs were affordable.

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And along the lines of the O&M training,

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the misconception that I have run into

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is that getting a dog

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is like getting a self-driving car.

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You don't have to do anything.

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The reality to me is that your O&M skills

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need to be even sharper

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because not only are you learning,

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but you're also having to teach the dog.

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So it's twofold rather than just one.

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That's a really great point.

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And I had a trainer at Southeastern Guide Dogs

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put it this way,

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that you need to be the brains of the team.

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And I thought that really put things into perspective.

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Your dog is giving you all sorts of information,

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but you are the one

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who's in the metaphorical driver's seat.

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So for each of you, as you thought about

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getting a dog for the first time,

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and Ed, I know for you

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this was actually a recent decision,

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what factored into that?

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Because we know that dogs aren't for everyone

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and there are some really great things

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about getting a dog and,

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you know, maybe some things that aren't ideal.

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And then, maybe part of the decision

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is something that

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just isn't working well for you

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with your current mobility aid

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if it's a cane or if you were going

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sighted guide all the time or what have you.

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So Ed, what factored

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into your initial decision to get a dog?

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I think the biggest factor was safety.

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I'm a runner and I wanted to be able to continue running,

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and I had some issues with cars and safety.

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And so Guiding Eyes for the Blind

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does train running guides

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and that's why I chose them.

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It was getting to where it was clearly unsafe for me

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to continue doing that without a dog.

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And so that was the major factor for me.

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Yeah.

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And Jeff, you've done this a few times,

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so clearly, something keeps you coming back.

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I'm curious if you remember that very first decision,

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what was going through your mind at that time?

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And then you've done it again

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a couple of times since.

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So what continues to keep you saying,

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yes, this is right for me,

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and are there things that you think about

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that make you possibly reconsider?

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Well, I have a history

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of resisting anything that's good for me

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in terms of adjusting with decreasing eyesight,

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and that applied to cane training

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and most every other adaptive strategy or device.

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When I was living in Philadelphia

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and commuting into the center city by rail

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with a white cane,

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I was working in a program

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that had many visually impaired people as employees,

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and some of them had dogs and some of them used canes.

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So I got a chance to talk to those people

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about the relative benefits and liabilities

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of each of those.

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And I decided that, as Ed said,

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for safety reasons, and also,

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as it turned out, for comfort reasons,

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I seem to be quite hypervigilant

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when it comes to cane use.

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And using the dog, at least for parts of the journey,

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I was kind of able to switch off

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the hyper end of the vigilance

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and not do the self-driving car,

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but remain the brains,

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but also disconnect a little bit

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so that I could enjoy the process

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of walking with the dog

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as opposed to being always on edge.

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And the subsequent dogs that I've had

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were pretty much the same reason.

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I moved from Philadelphia to Chicago,

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got a job where I was walking to and from work

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three miles a day.

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That dog lasted for nine years for his working life.

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We probably put 2,500 miles on walking

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and in varied weather, snow, ice, rain, heat, and so on

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with 20 intersections.

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And once the dog learned that route,

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I felt tremendously safe and comfortable with him.

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And so much of it depends on the lifestyle.

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What purpose are you looking for the dog?

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Certainly, the school will want to make sure

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that you're not just getting a dog

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to have a furry friend around the house,

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but that you'll actually use

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what it's trained to do.

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Yeah, that's a really good point.

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And I think that goes back

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to the misconceptions discussion that we had earlier.

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One of those is, oh, I will have a companion

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that I can take anywhere with me.

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And that's really the primary reason I'm doing this.

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And I think that is not the way to proceed.

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We do keep talking about this theme of being safe

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while traveling with a dog.

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And maybe it would help to elaborate a bit

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on what that means.

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'Cause I think when some people think

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you're safer with a dog,

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they're thinking that dog is a protector

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and that's not how we're talking about it

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in this instance.

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So could, you know,

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one or maybe both of you talk about

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what it means to feel a bit safer

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traveling with a dog as opposed to a cane?

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I think for me,

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as I said before, safety around cars was a big issue.

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And because I have both hearing and vision loss,

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I'm not always aware when there's a car around.

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And that was creating

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some serious safety issues for me in mobility,

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but also just even traveling inside a building as well

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and just kind of navigating indoors, I think, is safer.

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Obviously, if you're not bumping into things,

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that's definitely a factor.

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Absolutely.

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I agree with that.

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And I think that's a real perceptive point too, Ricky,

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in terms of we're not talking about personal safety

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in terms of protection.

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I've had people who have mistaken

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guide dogs for guard dogs.

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But from a safety standpoint,

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in terms of missteps and using the dog

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for what it was taught to do,

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00:12:41.550 --> 00:12:45.750
to find the stairs, find the curb,

273
00:12:45.750 --> 00:12:49.620
find the door, find a seat, and so on,

274
00:12:49.620 --> 00:12:50.940
especially in urban areas

275
00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:54.780
when you're doing a lot of bus travel and so on,

276
00:12:54.780 --> 00:12:58.050
it's a personal safety issue

277
00:12:58.050 --> 00:13:00.630
rather than a protection.

278
00:13:00.630 --> 00:13:01.620
Right.

279
00:13:01.620 --> 00:13:05.250
And thank you both for kind of clarifying that

280
00:13:05.250 --> 00:13:09.090
because I think when people are listening

281
00:13:09.090 --> 00:13:12.540
and they haven't traveled with a dog before,

282
00:13:12.540 --> 00:13:14.940
it is difficult to imagine

283
00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:18.870
what exactly does it do that a cane can't.

284
00:13:18.870 --> 00:13:21.180
And one of my favorite things

285
00:13:21.180 --> 00:13:25.290
about traveling with a dog was that with a cane,

286
00:13:25.290 --> 00:13:29.190
you generally have to touch something with that cane

287
00:13:29.190 --> 00:13:30.660
in order to then decide

288
00:13:30.660 --> 00:13:32.610
what you're going to do about it,

289
00:13:32.610 --> 00:13:36.300
whether that's go around it or in the case of stairs,

290
00:13:36.300 --> 00:13:38.880
you know, okay, I'm going down or up now.

291
00:13:38.880 --> 00:13:41.250
And with a dog, a lot of those things

292
00:13:41.250 --> 00:13:43.590
are handled just more seamlessly,

293
00:13:43.590 --> 00:13:45.450
which is wonderful.

294
00:13:45.450 --> 00:13:48.450
For both of you, it sounds like

295
00:13:48.450 --> 00:13:52.562
you have traveled with a dog,

296
00:13:52.562 --> 00:13:57.510
and you still had some usable vision

297
00:13:57.510 --> 00:13:59.910
so you could get information

298
00:13:59.910 --> 00:14:02.070
about your environment visually.

299
00:14:02.070 --> 00:14:06.270
Now, whether that information was trustworthy or not

300
00:14:06.270 --> 00:14:08.400
is an entirely different thing.

301
00:14:08.400 --> 00:14:11.970
So I imagine that when you're traveling with a dog

302
00:14:11.970 --> 00:14:15.343
and you still have some usable vision,

303
00:14:15.343 --> 00:14:19.306
and yet the dog is trained

304
00:14:19.306 --> 00:14:22.920
to keep you safe in these different ways of,

305
00:14:22.920 --> 00:14:24.420
you asked me to find a seat

306
00:14:24.420 --> 00:14:26.130
so now I'm going to do that.

307
00:14:26.130 --> 00:14:29.280
I've been trained to find the stairs,

308
00:14:29.280 --> 00:14:31.050
so now I'm going to do that.

309
00:14:31.050 --> 00:14:36.050
How do you relinquish the right amount of control

310
00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:40.470
and trust your dog as opposed to

311
00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:42.810
maybe your problematic vision?

312
00:14:42.810 --> 00:14:44.700
I think for myself,

313
00:14:44.700 --> 00:14:48.240
because I still do have some central vision,

314
00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:49.980
there are some times, however,

315
00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:54.723
where my vision fluctuates depending on the lighting.

316
00:14:55.830 --> 00:14:59.430
And there are times where I don't see anything

317
00:14:59.430 --> 00:15:01.890
because of changes in lighting.

318
00:15:01.890 --> 00:15:05.760
And so I definitely have to, in those situations,

319
00:15:05.760 --> 00:15:08.523
completely trust Serena.

320
00:15:10.140 --> 00:15:12.060
But there are times where, you know,

321
00:15:12.060 --> 00:15:14.400
I use all of my senses because,

322
00:15:14.400 --> 00:15:16.380
you know, she and I are a team

323
00:15:16.380 --> 00:15:20.040
and I use the limited hearing that I have,

324
00:15:20.040 --> 00:15:22.290
I use the limited vision that I have,

325
00:15:22.290 --> 00:15:26.870
and I use her cues altogether.

326
00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:29.250
And that doesn't mean

327
00:15:29.250 --> 00:15:32.868
that we, you know, aren't going to make mistakes,

328
00:15:32.868 --> 00:15:37.320
but that's how we learn, through our experiences.

329
00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:39.510
I haven't had any issues with

330
00:15:39.510 --> 00:15:41.670
when I needed her more

331
00:15:41.670 --> 00:15:44.313
to let her show me the way.

332
00:15:45.298 --> 00:15:48.210
I think sometimes I do have to be careful

333
00:15:48.210 --> 00:15:51.060
that I'm not always the one

334
00:15:51.060 --> 00:15:53.220
determining some of the directions

335
00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:56.160
because she can see better than I can, obviously,

336
00:15:56.160 --> 00:15:58.320
and I'm going to miss some things.

337
00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:01.182
So I do have to pay attention to her cues

338
00:16:01.182 --> 00:16:04.470
and not just make those decisions myself.

339
00:16:04.470 --> 00:16:05.790
Great.

340
00:16:05.790 --> 00:16:07.410
Yeah, I was going to say, Jeff, how about you?

341
00:16:07.410 --> 00:16:10.320
Because you've gone from having

342
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:12.990
more usable vision with your first dog,

343
00:16:12.990 --> 00:16:16.080
I think, to now far less.

344
00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:16.913
Correct.

345
00:16:16.913 --> 00:16:18.420
They call it progressive vision loss.

346
00:16:18.420 --> 00:16:19.770
I don't think it's progress

347
00:16:21.300 --> 00:16:23.160
in the usual sense of the term.

348
00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:26.370
Well, I took my dog, my first dog, Sherlock,

349
00:16:26.370 --> 00:16:29.100
to elementary school classes

350
00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:32.802
and talked to the students about life as a blind person

351
00:16:32.802 --> 00:16:34.890
and life with a guide dog.

352
00:16:34.890 --> 00:16:38.400
And one day, in a third-grade class,

353
00:16:38.400 --> 00:16:41.550
there were a lot of questions from the students.

354
00:16:41.550 --> 00:16:45.254
But then one day, a third-grade boy said,

355
00:16:45.254 --> 00:16:48.390
how hard was it for you

356
00:16:48.390 --> 00:16:51.660
to put your trust in your dog?

357
00:16:51.660 --> 00:16:54.510
And I thought that kid's going far

358
00:16:54.510 --> 00:16:57.346
because that's a pretty abstract thought for,

359
00:16:57.346 --> 00:16:58.920
let's say, an 8-year-old.

360
00:16:58.920 --> 00:17:00.990
And the trust issue is really good

361
00:17:00.990 --> 00:17:02.400
because when you can't trust

362
00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:04.920
what you see or depend on what you see,

363
00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:06.507
whether it's a cane or a dog,

364
00:17:06.507 --> 00:17:09.600
you have to put your faith in something.

365
00:17:09.600 --> 00:17:14.250
And I did have more usable vision in 2003

366
00:17:14.250 --> 00:17:16.110
when I trained with my first dog.

367
00:17:16.110 --> 00:17:19.860
And it was sometimes disconcerting

368
00:17:19.860 --> 00:17:22.830
when the dog would be walking down the street

369
00:17:22.830 --> 00:17:26.070
and be aiming right for that parking meter.

370
00:17:26.070 --> 00:17:29.370
And I'm starting to cheat one way or the other

371
00:17:29.370 --> 00:17:34.320
to go around it and then he zigs out of the way

372
00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:36.840
in the last two or three steps.

373
00:17:36.840 --> 00:17:40.050
I know that there are some schools that may have employed,

374
00:17:40.050 --> 00:17:43.980
and I'm not speaking for current or any particular school,

375
00:17:43.980 --> 00:17:47.580
that they would use a blindfold with students

376
00:17:47.580 --> 00:17:50.280
who find that they were being distracted

377
00:17:50.280 --> 00:17:53.370
and override the training

378
00:17:53.370 --> 00:17:57.840
that the school had put into those dogs.

379
00:17:57.840 --> 00:18:00.210
That's the big conflict, I think,

380
00:18:00.210 --> 00:18:05.210
is that the dog trusts its own instincts and vision

381
00:18:05.370 --> 00:18:07.140
and smell and so on.

382
00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:11.970
And if the dog senses that you are overriding it

383
00:18:11.970 --> 00:18:14.070
when you have the dog in harness

384
00:18:14.070 --> 00:18:17.286
and he or she's supposed to be in charge,

385
00:18:17.286 --> 00:18:19.890
that undermines some of the training.

386
00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:22.050
So it's a tricky thing,

387
00:18:22.050 --> 00:18:24.840
but it does ultimately involve trust.

388
00:18:24.840 --> 00:18:27.180
And, you know, you put on a few miles,

389
00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:29.790
and you zig around the fire hydrants

390
00:18:29.790 --> 00:18:33.090
and the parking meters, and you stop at the stairs,

391
00:18:33.090 --> 00:18:34.800
and you stop at the curb,

392
00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:37.290
it's easy to put your trust in

393
00:18:37.290 --> 00:18:39.210
once you get a few miles on.

394
00:18:39.210 --> 00:18:40.043
Yeah.

395
00:18:40.043 --> 00:18:43.380
So let's talk about people and dogs.

396
00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:46.170
People feel things about dogs.

397
00:18:46.170 --> 00:18:48.840
Some people love dogs

398
00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:51.060
and can't resist petting them

399
00:18:51.060 --> 00:18:52.170
even if they shouldn't.

400
00:18:52.170 --> 00:18:55.680
And then Some people are terrified of dogs,

401
00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.062
some people are, maybe they have dog allergies,

402
00:18:59.062 --> 00:19:01.920
there's just this whole list of things

403
00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:03.837
that people might feel about dogs,

404
00:19:03.837 --> 00:19:08.100
and I think that is reflected in how people

405
00:19:08.100 --> 00:19:11.430
interact with you when you're traveling with a dog.

406
00:19:11.430 --> 00:19:14.220
So let's talk about then the,

407
00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:17.790
I guess, the social kind of benefits and drawbacks

408
00:19:17.790 --> 00:19:21.060
of traveling with a dog as opposed to a cane.

409
00:19:21.060 --> 00:19:22.830
What changes?

410
00:19:22.830 --> 00:19:25.350
I have found that, a lot of times,

411
00:19:25.350 --> 00:19:28.500
people do have trouble ignoring

412
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:30.826
or not interacting with Serena

413
00:19:30.826 --> 00:19:33.742
because there are a lot of dog lovers out there,

414
00:19:33.742 --> 00:19:36.390
and that is distracting to her.

415
00:19:36.390 --> 00:19:39.810
And a lot of times, people will say,

416
00:19:39.810 --> 00:19:41.670
I know I'm not supposed to talk to your dog,

417
00:19:41.670 --> 00:19:43.620
but then they'll start talking to her.

418
00:19:43.620 --> 00:19:47.280
So it is a challenge because she's very cute

419
00:19:47.280 --> 00:19:49.560
and very lovable and friendly,

420
00:19:49.560 --> 00:19:52.560
and it's hard for people not to do that.

421
00:19:52.560 --> 00:19:56.070
And sometimes I've had to explain that to people.

422
00:19:56.070 --> 00:19:59.610
Usually, they understand and they back off,

423
00:19:59.610 --> 00:20:00.720
but not always.

424
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:03.090
So that's a challenge.

425
00:20:03.090 --> 00:20:06.690
I know some people say that having a dog,

426
00:20:06.690 --> 00:20:09.210
people are more likely to approach them.

427
00:20:09.210 --> 00:20:11.670
I haven't really noticed that much difference

428
00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:15.586
when I was using a cane versus a dog.

429
00:20:15.586 --> 00:20:18.060
I do have some central vision,

430
00:20:18.060 --> 00:20:22.530
I do notice sometimes when I'm going down the sidewalk

431
00:20:22.530 --> 00:20:23.820
and people see, it's common,

432
00:20:23.820 --> 00:20:26.910
they will sometimes cross to the other side of the street.

433
00:20:26.910 --> 00:20:29.820
I don't know if it's because they're fearful of dogs

434
00:20:29.820 --> 00:20:31.712
or they don't want to distract us,

435
00:20:31.712 --> 00:20:32.970
I really don't know,

436
00:20:32.970 --> 00:20:35.460
but I've noticed that happens sometimes.

437
00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:37.050
And Jeff, what about you?

438
00:20:37.050 --> 00:20:39.780
Well, I understand and respect anyone

439
00:20:39.780 --> 00:20:41.730
who has a fear of dogs.

440
00:20:41.730 --> 00:20:44.130
I've been lucky to have good experiences

441
00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:46.650
with dogs during my lifetime,

442
00:20:46.650 --> 00:20:49.200
and I feel bad for those who have not,

443
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:53.130
so I want to respect other people's feelings.

444
00:20:53.130 --> 00:20:56.130
I too, like Ed, have had situations

445
00:20:56.130 --> 00:20:59.850
where I can sense or even hear someone approaching me

446
00:20:59.850 --> 00:21:02.310
on the sidewalk, and then the dog

447
00:21:02.310 --> 00:21:05.220
will kind of start to show off a little bit,

448
00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:07.202
prance a little bit.

449
00:21:07.202 --> 00:21:10.920
I have approached people who then would walk

450
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:15.030
into the parkway between the sidewalk and the street

451
00:21:15.030 --> 00:21:18.300
and kind of be as quiet as they could be.

452
00:21:18.300 --> 00:21:20.670
So, maybe if I don't make any noise,

453
00:21:20.670 --> 00:21:23.886
the dog and the person won't hear me.

454
00:21:23.886 --> 00:21:26.730
And usually I'll kind of consider

455
00:21:26.730 --> 00:21:28.590
when I'm abreast of them and say,

456
00:21:28.590 --> 00:21:30.810
hi, how are you doing today?

457
00:21:30.810 --> 00:21:33.480
Just kind of freak them out a little bit.

458
00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.530
But especially in workplaces and so on,

459
00:21:37.530 --> 00:21:40.200
the best advice that I can give people

460
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:41.910
who often come into contact

461
00:21:41.910 --> 00:21:44.250
with someone with a dog is to say,

462
00:21:44.250 --> 00:21:47.310
The best thing you can do around a guide dog

463
00:21:47.310 --> 00:21:49.470
is to ignore it.

464
00:21:49.470 --> 00:21:52.020
And I know that's really hard to do,

465
00:21:52.020 --> 00:21:53.670
and like Ed said,

466
00:21:53.670 --> 00:21:55.020
I know I shouldn't do this,

467
00:21:55.020 --> 00:21:58.083
but I just can't resist that cute doggy.

468
00:21:59.280 --> 00:22:00.510
Well, that's true,

469
00:22:00.510 --> 00:22:02.580
but you have to restrain yourself.

470
00:22:02.580 --> 00:22:05.580
And the dog is a social being too.

471
00:22:05.580 --> 00:22:06.840
It's a pack animal.

472
00:22:06.840 --> 00:22:09.420
It wants to meet the level of energy

473
00:22:09.420 --> 00:22:12.840
that is shown to it by its own energy.

474
00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:16.788
And so if somebody comes part wheeling up,

475
00:22:16.788 --> 00:22:18.840
I mean, kids and so on, you know,

476
00:22:18.840 --> 00:22:20.160
bless them, you know?

477
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:21.870
I mean, they're waving their arms,

478
00:22:21.870 --> 00:22:23.130
and they're all akimbo,

479
00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:24.634
and this and that and the other,

480
00:22:24.634 --> 00:22:27.390
the dog reacts that way too.

481
00:22:27.390 --> 00:22:29.880
So there are rules, and you have to be firm.

482
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:32.510
I mean, I had social situations

483
00:22:32.510 --> 00:22:35.690
when I was commuting by train in Philadelphia,

484
00:22:35.690 --> 00:22:38.550
and I'd come into the car with a cane,

485
00:22:38.550 --> 00:22:42.030
nobody would say, hey, over here, over here, over here.

486
00:22:42.030 --> 00:22:43.290
As soon as I got the dog,

487
00:22:43.290 --> 00:22:45.060
people were falling out of the way

488
00:22:45.060 --> 00:22:46.980
to give me a seat and say,

489
00:22:46.980 --> 00:22:48.150
Come over and sit here.

490
00:22:48.150 --> 00:22:49.200
Come sit here.

491
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:50.190
Right.

492
00:22:50.190 --> 00:22:51.960
I guess you're part of the package.

493
00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.120
I'll hear a bit about you, but yeah.

494
00:22:55.019 --> 00:22:56.100
Yeah.

495
00:22:56.100 --> 00:22:58.050
Well, this is so wonderful

496
00:22:58.050 --> 00:23:01.770
and informative to hear from people

497
00:23:01.770 --> 00:23:04.920
who are happily using dogs

498
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:07.440
and just being able to talk about

499
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:09.972
what is realistic to expect

500
00:23:09.972 --> 00:23:12.660
and to get that glimpse

501
00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:17.130
into what it might be like to have a dog.

502
00:23:17.130 --> 00:23:20.280
In our show notes, we'll have a link

503
00:23:20.280 --> 00:23:22.680
to a couple of Hadley's workshops

504
00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:24.180
on talking about weighing

505
00:23:24.180 --> 00:23:27.420
the pros and cons of a guide dog.

506
00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:29.430
There have been a couple of schools mentioned,

507
00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:31.380
and we'll have a link to those

508
00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:34.980
as well as just some general research that you can do.

509
00:23:34.980 --> 00:23:36.960
'Cause there are a lot of schools

510
00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.120
and a lot of different training methodologies,

511
00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:41.310
whether it be in-home training

512
00:23:41.310 --> 00:23:45.030
or heading out to a residential situation

513
00:23:45.030 --> 00:23:47.760
where you're there for a few weeks in training.

514
00:23:47.760 --> 00:23:50.100
And at Hadley, you can call us

515
00:23:50.100 --> 00:23:53.520
and we can happily answer those questions

516
00:23:53.520 --> 00:23:56.567
if you're thinking about doing this.

517
00:23:56.567 --> 00:24:00.511
As we wrap up, I'm wondering from each of you,

518
00:24:00.511 --> 00:24:05.220
what is something that you absolutely didn't expect

519
00:24:05.220 --> 00:24:06.420
when you got your dog?

520
00:24:06.420 --> 00:24:09.810
What is just a really surprising thing

521
00:24:09.810 --> 00:24:11.700
that you discovered?

522
00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:15.030
For me, with Serena personally,

523
00:24:15.030 --> 00:24:16.590
she never barks.

524
00:24:16.590 --> 00:24:20.280
And I've never had a dog that never barks.

525
00:24:20.280 --> 00:24:22.440
I know some guys' dogs do bark,

526
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:27.350
but that was just very surprising and unusual for me

527
00:24:27.350 --> 00:24:30.090
to be with a dog that never barks.

528
00:24:30.090 --> 00:24:32.430
Yeah, my dog never barked either.

529
00:24:32.430 --> 00:24:34.992
And what I found surprising was that

530
00:24:34.992 --> 00:24:37.320
he was two different puppies.

531
00:24:37.320 --> 00:24:40.230
So there was the dog in harness

532
00:24:40.230 --> 00:24:42.480
who was very serious and dedicated,

533
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:45.030
and then as soon as that harness came off,

534
00:24:45.030 --> 00:24:48.600
he was playful and had his sense of humor,

535
00:24:48.600 --> 00:24:50.940
and both of them were him,

536
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:53.340
but they were just two very different aspects.

537
00:24:53.340 --> 00:24:55.890
And I guess I had never thought about that.

538
00:24:55.890 --> 00:24:57.330
Jeff, how about you?

539
00:24:57.330 --> 00:24:58.710
Yeah, that's a good point, Ricky,

540
00:24:58.710 --> 00:25:01.290
because it's not like I got a working dog.

541
00:25:01.290 --> 00:25:03.570
I got a working dog and a pet.

542
00:25:03.570 --> 00:25:05.730
And I know there's a danger in that

543
00:25:05.730 --> 00:25:08.010
in terms of justifying to a school

544
00:25:08.010 --> 00:25:09.510
that you need a dog

545
00:25:09.510 --> 00:25:11.670
because they're giving you a dog

546
00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:14.370
that has been trained for months and months

547
00:25:14.370 --> 00:25:17.820
and in a puppy raising family for socialization.

548
00:25:17.820 --> 00:25:19.170
You're not just getting a pet,

549
00:25:19.170 --> 00:25:23.160
but two for the price of one aspect

550
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:27.240
that Ricky was talking about is very important.

551
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:30.900
And I think we've all been in situations

552
00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:34.140
that have become a little bit uncertain

553
00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:36.630
or even downright scary,

554
00:25:36.630 --> 00:25:40.680
whether it's the surroundings or the weather or so on.

555
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:43.320
But the idea of being a team,

556
00:25:43.320 --> 00:25:46.800
because blindness can be so isolating,

557
00:25:46.800 --> 00:25:48.660
you can be alone in a crowd.

558
00:25:48.660 --> 00:25:51.330
And I've had so many experiences

559
00:25:51.330 --> 00:25:53.118
when I've been with the dogs

560
00:25:53.118 --> 00:25:58.118
where I have depended on them as a member of my team,

561
00:25:59.670 --> 00:26:01.987
almost to the point where I want to break into

562
00:26:01.987 --> 00:26:04.080
"You'll Never Walk Alone"

563
00:26:04.080 --> 00:26:07.530
singing as we go down the street.

564
00:26:07.530 --> 00:26:10.712
So it's interesting, the different needs

565
00:26:10.712 --> 00:26:14.040
that the dog has fulfilled

566
00:26:14.040 --> 00:26:17.940
all the way from a practical to an emotional level.

567
00:26:17.940 --> 00:26:19.500
Love it. Thank you.

568
00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:23.040
Yeah, thank you both for sharing about,

569
00:26:23.040 --> 00:26:25.530
I guess, yourselves and your dogs,

570
00:26:25.530 --> 00:26:28.590
and just the journey that going

571
00:26:28.590 --> 00:26:33.060
from traveling in one way with a cane

572
00:26:33.060 --> 00:26:35.280
to traveling differently

573
00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:37.950
and the experiences that that brings you

574
00:26:37.950 --> 00:26:40.410
when you're traveling with a dog.

575
00:26:40.410 --> 00:26:42.960
I think, again, this has been really informative,

576
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:44.820
and it's been a wonderful chat

577
00:26:44.820 --> 00:26:46.620
getting to know about you and your dogs.

578
00:26:46.620 --> 00:26:48.110
Thank you, both.

579
00:26:48.110 --> 00:26:49.090
Thank you, Ricky.

580
00:26:49.090 --> 00:26:50.220
Thank you, Ricky.

581
00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:51.270
Good to hear you, Ed.

582
00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:54.390
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583
00:26:54.390 --> 00:26:56.430
Share your thoughts about this episode

584
00:26:56.430 --> 00:26:57.810
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585
00:26:57.810 --> 00:27:00.420
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586
00:27:00.420 --> 00:27:02.130
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587
00:27:02.130 --> 00:27:07.110
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588
00:27:07.110 --> 00:27:11.893
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589
00:27:13.313 --> 00:27:18.313
or leave us a message at 847-784-2870.

590
00:27:20.550 --> 00:27:21.663
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