WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.300 --> 00:00:04.710 With vision loss, we experience a wide range of emotions. 2 00:00:04.710 --> 00:00:08.850 In this episode, clinical psychologist, Dr. Ann Wagner 3 00:00:08.850 --> 00:00:11.940 and Hadley's Marc Arneson, join us to share 4 00:00:11.940 --> 00:00:14.970 how learning from and connecting with our emotions 5 00:00:14.970 --> 00:00:18.000 can bring about healing and transformation. 6 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:21.447 I'm Ricky Enger and this is "Hadley Presents." 7 00:00:22.890 --> 00:00:25.680 Welcome to "Hadley Presents Dr. Ann Wagner." 8 00:00:25.680 --> 00:00:28.440 Thank you so much for joining us today on the show. 9 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:29.847 I'm glad to be here. 10 00:00:29.847 --> 00:00:34.141 I've been eagerly counting down the days for this episode. 11 00:00:34.141 --> 00:00:34.974 Aw. 12 00:00:34.974 --> 00:00:37.440 I am. I'm really excited about this conversation. 13 00:00:37.440 --> 00:00:39.330 Even some of the questions that we came up with, 14 00:00:39.330 --> 00:00:42.000 I'm really excited to have this talk. 15 00:00:42.000 --> 00:00:43.947 Honestly, I know it's not always easy, 16 00:00:43.947 --> 00:00:47.490 and I'm sure in your experience you come across this. 17 00:00:47.490 --> 00:00:49.890 It's not always easy or even comfortable 18 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:51.990 to talk about some of the difficult emotions 19 00:00:51.990 --> 00:00:53.880 that can come with vision loss 20 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:56.520 and the importance of connecting with others. 21 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:58.410 I can't imagine it's always easy or comfortable, 22 00:00:58.410 --> 00:01:00.960 but I think it's such an important conversation to have. 23 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.907 So I'm grateful to have you on the show today. 24 00:01:04.907 --> 00:01:05.883 Thank you. 25 00:01:07.493 --> 00:01:09.930 Dr. Wagner, Ann, I have some questions for you 26 00:01:09.930 --> 00:01:11.070 that I was hoping we could run through, 27 00:01:11.070 --> 00:01:12.870 but before we get to those, 28 00:01:12.870 --> 00:01:15.750 do you mind just sharing a little bit about yourself? 29 00:01:15.750 --> 00:01:16.740 Yeah. 30 00:01:16.740 --> 00:01:20.970 I am legally blind due to retinitis pigmentosa, 31 00:01:20.970 --> 00:01:23.640 it's an autosomal dominant form. 32 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:26.460 And I had genetic testing and it's PRPF3, 33 00:01:26.460 --> 00:01:30.570 which means if you have this particular gene type, 34 00:01:30.570 --> 00:01:33.060 you have the symptoms and any children you have 35 00:01:33.060 --> 00:01:36.330 will have a 50-50 chance of inheriting the eye disease. 36 00:01:36.330 --> 00:01:41.330 So my grandpa had five kids, three of them inherited RP, 37 00:01:41.340 --> 00:01:43.110 and one of those was my mom. 38 00:01:43.110 --> 00:01:45.630 My mom and dad had five children 39 00:01:45.630 --> 00:01:48.780 and four of us inherited RP. 40 00:01:48.780 --> 00:01:51.660 So I kind of grew up in a blind culture 41 00:01:51.660 --> 00:01:53.520 where everybody understood 42 00:01:53.520 --> 00:01:56.100 that retinitis pigmentosa primarily involves 43 00:01:56.100 --> 00:02:00.630 progressive loss of the peripheral vision and night vision. 44 00:02:00.630 --> 00:02:02.640 So we have worsening tunnel vision, 45 00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:04.230 worsening night blindness. 46 00:02:04.230 --> 00:02:06.360 In childhood is when the night blindness 47 00:02:06.360 --> 00:02:07.680 is usually quite evident 48 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:09.840 and then the acuity is affected more 49 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:12.300 in our later teens, early 20s. 50 00:02:12.300 --> 00:02:15.780 So my mom, her vision met the standards for legal blindness 51 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:19.740 when she was 16 due to the severity of the tunnel vision. 52 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:24.300 I was 18 when my vision loss met those requirements. 53 00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:27.840 Growing up in this blind culture meant I had support, 54 00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.570 I had people who understood what I was going through, 55 00:02:30.570 --> 00:02:33.480 and the sighted people in our lives kinda knew 56 00:02:33.480 --> 00:02:36.180 what we needed and what we didn't need. 57 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:38.880 And so I know how lucky I am for that, 58 00:02:38.880 --> 00:02:41.280 and I have a lot of gratitude. 59 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:45.300 Currently, my vision is quite impaired. 60 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:47.580 I have end stage complications 61 00:02:47.580 --> 00:02:50.820 that would take a while to explain, but I'm pretty blind. 62 00:02:50.820 --> 00:02:52.950 I have some light vision left. 63 00:02:52.950 --> 00:02:56.970 With ideal lighting conditions and contrast, 64 00:02:56.970 --> 00:02:59.040 I can still make out some shapes, 65 00:02:59.040 --> 00:03:01.185 but that's where my vision is at now. 66 00:03:01.185 --> 00:03:03.090 Professionally, I am 67 00:03:03.090 --> 00:03:05.670 a board-certified clinical psychologist, 68 00:03:05.670 --> 00:03:08.760 and I've worked 26 years at the Minneapolis VA 69 00:03:08.760 --> 00:03:12.270 Healthcare System on the PTSD clinical team. 70 00:03:12.270 --> 00:03:14.550 In the field I'm considered a trauma specialist, 71 00:03:14.550 --> 00:03:18.510 but everyone on our team was also considered a generalist. 72 00:03:18.510 --> 00:03:22.500 I loved my work at the VA. I am now retired. 73 00:03:22.500 --> 00:03:23.490 But even though I'm retired, 74 00:03:23.490 --> 00:03:26.310 I'm still required to make a disclaimer 75 00:03:26.310 --> 00:03:29.280 that the views I express today are my own 76 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:32.325 in my role as a citizen psychologist. 77 00:03:32.325 --> 00:03:36.060 The views do not represent any official views 78 00:03:36.060 --> 00:03:37.590 of the federal government 79 00:03:37.590 --> 00:03:39.682 or the Department of Veterans Affairs. 80 00:03:39.682 --> 00:03:42.750 I just felt I needed to say that. 81 00:03:42.750 --> 00:03:47.520 But even though I'm retired, I'm still professionally active 82 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.330 with some consulting work and invited guest speaking, 83 00:03:51.330 --> 00:03:53.580 particularly on topics related to mental health 84 00:03:53.580 --> 00:03:54.413 and vision loss. 85 00:03:55.410 --> 00:03:58.530 Speaking of that, I've had a chance to hear you speak 86 00:03:58.530 --> 00:04:00.060 a few different times, and I've listened 87 00:04:00.060 --> 00:04:01.560 to some of the conversations that you've had 88 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:03.510 and in some of your presentations. 89 00:04:03.510 --> 00:04:06.630 You talk about this concept of complex grief. 90 00:04:06.630 --> 00:04:08.070 I was wondering, just to get started, 91 00:04:08.070 --> 00:04:09.690 do you mind sharing with me a little bit about 92 00:04:09.690 --> 00:04:12.960 what that means and maybe how it relates to vision loss? 93 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:13.793 Yeah. 94 00:04:13.793 --> 00:04:17.550 I think complex grief can resonate with a lot of people 95 00:04:17.550 --> 00:04:21.000 experiencing any kind of progressive medical condition 96 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.690 where each incremental change in the condition 97 00:04:24.690 --> 00:04:28.260 can mean it affects different areas of functioning. 98 00:04:28.260 --> 00:04:31.483 So particularly with progressive vision loss, 99 00:04:31.483 --> 00:04:36.420 every degree of peripheral vision or loss of acuity 100 00:04:36.420 --> 00:04:39.450 can potentially result in additional losses 101 00:04:39.450 --> 00:04:41.223 of independent functioning. 102 00:04:42.150 --> 00:04:45.480 So with each loss of independent functioning 103 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:49.904 or an activity of daily living becoming more challenging, 104 00:04:49.904 --> 00:04:52.080 there's going to be grief attached 105 00:04:52.080 --> 00:04:56.160 to each of those with different meanings attached. 106 00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:59.670 And so it's by no means simple. It is quite complex. 107 00:04:59.670 --> 00:05:01.020 And there's a nuance there 108 00:05:01.020 --> 00:05:03.750 that I don't think a lot of people are aware of. 109 00:05:03.750 --> 00:05:08.750 But whenever we have to pause and do some problem solving 110 00:05:09.510 --> 00:05:12.990 to do something differently, to try to figure out ways... 111 00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:15.180 If we learn new blind skills, 112 00:05:15.180 --> 00:05:16.380 is there a way we can continue 113 00:05:16.380 --> 00:05:18.510 to do something independently? 114 00:05:18.510 --> 00:05:23.130 Or the time it takes to utilize resources 115 00:05:23.130 --> 00:05:26.430 or connect to supports to still engage in activities, 116 00:05:26.430 --> 00:05:30.060 we value that time and our relationship 117 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:32.997 to time becomes an area of grief 118 00:05:32.997 --> 00:05:37.020 in the sense that I know how I would most want 119 00:05:37.020 --> 00:05:39.090 to spend my time. 120 00:05:39.090 --> 00:05:42.810 And yet, to adapt and to move forward, 121 00:05:42.810 --> 00:05:45.360 I'm going to have to dedicate some time 122 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:49.320 to the problem solving and to figuring things out. 123 00:05:49.320 --> 00:05:50.790 So there's a loss there, 124 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:53.010 a loss of maybe what we call the freedom 125 00:05:53.010 --> 00:05:55.350 of how we want to use our time, 126 00:05:55.350 --> 00:05:57.690 and those are the things we do to adapt 127 00:05:57.690 --> 00:06:00.330 and we make all sorts of sacrifices in life 128 00:06:00.330 --> 00:06:02.190 to do things that are important 129 00:06:02.190 --> 00:06:04.470 that may not be our preferred, 130 00:06:04.470 --> 00:06:07.503 but it's part of that complex grief process. 131 00:06:07.503 --> 00:06:09.397 It's fascinating. 132 00:06:09.397 --> 00:06:12.630 I think you talked about some of the different challenges 133 00:06:12.630 --> 00:06:13.644 that can come with vision loss, 134 00:06:13.644 --> 00:06:16.320 and I know the day-to-day challenges. 135 00:06:16.320 --> 00:06:18.060 I've heard a lot of folks talking about 136 00:06:18.060 --> 00:06:19.650 trying to discover new ways to do things 137 00:06:19.650 --> 00:06:21.000 that have now become more challenging. 138 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:23.730 I've also heard a lot of people that I've talked to 139 00:06:23.730 --> 00:06:26.970 share that the emotional challenges 140 00:06:26.970 --> 00:06:28.500 that come with vision loss 141 00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:30.960 can be even more difficult sometimes 142 00:06:30.960 --> 00:06:33.450 than the physical or practical challenges 143 00:06:33.450 --> 00:06:35.491 that come with vision loss. 144 00:06:35.491 --> 00:06:38.787 I know, emotions, we all have them, right? 145 00:06:38.787 --> 00:06:42.270 Some are pleasant, some are not pleasant at all. 146 00:06:42.270 --> 00:06:44.910 But I'm curious, do you mind sharing a little bit about 147 00:06:44.910 --> 00:06:47.280 what our emotions tell us and is there something 148 00:06:47.280 --> 00:06:50.220 that we can learn from those emotions? 149 00:06:50.220 --> 00:06:53.580 Yeah. In fact, they tell us a lot. 150 00:06:53.580 --> 00:06:56.070 They actually tell us who we are at our core 151 00:06:56.070 --> 00:06:58.050 and what matters to us. 152 00:06:58.050 --> 00:07:01.170 There's a principle that's shared 153 00:07:01.170 --> 00:07:03.990 by a couple of different therapy models. 154 00:07:03.990 --> 00:07:07.590 It's this principle or idea that emotions only show up 155 00:07:07.590 --> 00:07:09.750 to tell us what we value, 156 00:07:09.750 --> 00:07:12.330 what we hold dear, what matters to us. 157 00:07:12.330 --> 00:07:15.390 The problem is that the more painful emotions, 158 00:07:15.390 --> 00:07:18.690 we've been exposed to programming and messages and judgments 159 00:07:18.690 --> 00:07:21.060 that somehow we're not supposed to feel what we feel 160 00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:23.350 unless we're presenting as happy. 161 00:07:23.350 --> 00:07:27.360 We've learned all sorts of avoidance patterns 162 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.600 or self-protective patterns that distance us 163 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:32.490 from our own core emotions 164 00:07:32.490 --> 00:07:35.130 when actually they are so important to connect to 165 00:07:35.130 --> 00:07:36.990 and to understand. 166 00:07:36.990 --> 00:07:41.990 And so to illustrate, I use this idea every day myself, 167 00:07:42.150 --> 00:07:45.360 and I used it in almost every course of therapy, 168 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:47.370 this foundational principle 169 00:07:47.370 --> 00:07:49.200 of connecting to our core emotions 170 00:07:49.200 --> 00:07:51.450 to listen to what they're telling us 171 00:07:51.450 --> 00:07:54.933 and to process them in a naturally healing way. 172 00:07:56.570 --> 00:07:58.920 I'd like to share stories in my examples 173 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:01.050 of how things work if that's okay. 174 00:08:01.050 --> 00:08:02.880 Great, I'd love that. Yes. 175 00:08:02.880 --> 00:08:04.560 Yay. Good. 176 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:09.300 I have a grandson who is almost two years old, 177 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:11.700 and when I connect to this truth 178 00:08:11.700 --> 00:08:13.803 that I'm not able to see his face, 179 00:08:14.760 --> 00:08:16.650 then a couple of emotions show up. 180 00:08:16.650 --> 00:08:18.453 Helplessness and grief. 181 00:08:19.563 --> 00:08:22.410 When I think about what are these emotions telling me 182 00:08:22.410 --> 00:08:25.080 about what I care about, to start with, 183 00:08:25.080 --> 00:08:28.530 the helplessness is a very important emotion. 184 00:08:28.530 --> 00:08:31.920 It's probably the one we struggle with the most. 185 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.230 It's the one that shows up when we wish 186 00:08:34.230 --> 00:08:37.623 we could control something that we really can't. 187 00:08:38.550 --> 00:08:41.310 So it tells us two truths. 188 00:08:41.310 --> 00:08:43.170 First, it tells us the truth about 189 00:08:43.170 --> 00:08:44.970 the limits of our control. 190 00:08:44.970 --> 00:08:48.510 And actually we only have control over one thing in life, 191 00:08:48.510 --> 00:08:50.190 and that's what we choose to do 192 00:08:50.190 --> 00:08:52.590 in this one moment right now. 193 00:08:52.590 --> 00:08:55.650 That's it. We don't have any control. 194 00:08:55.650 --> 00:08:59.629 If controllability was a scale, I'd say we have zero control 195 00:08:59.629 --> 00:09:03.510 over the past because we don't have a time machine, 196 00:09:03.510 --> 00:09:07.050 or the future because we don't have a time machine. 197 00:09:07.050 --> 00:09:10.020 We have zero control over what people say, 198 00:09:10.020 --> 00:09:12.600 what they do, what they feel or what they believe. 199 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:15.420 We actually have no direct control. 200 00:09:15.420 --> 00:09:18.720 So really we have no control over anything 201 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:21.393 except what we do in this one moment. 202 00:09:22.391 --> 00:09:25.500 The helplessness is telling me I can't control the fact 203 00:09:25.500 --> 00:09:28.983 that in this moment I can't see my grandson's face. 204 00:09:29.850 --> 00:09:33.330 But then helplessness always tells us a second truth. 205 00:09:33.330 --> 00:09:35.250 That we care about something. 206 00:09:35.250 --> 00:09:39.030 So it's trying to help us connect to that core deep sense of 207 00:09:39.030 --> 00:09:40.680 where our most important values are. 208 00:09:40.680 --> 00:09:42.180 Otherwise, it doesn't even show up 209 00:09:42.180 --> 00:09:45.600 if it's not something we care about that we can't control. 210 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.600 That makes sense. Yeah. It's telling me 211 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:50.370 that I care about something. 212 00:09:50.370 --> 00:09:52.890 So if we were to give a name to a person 213 00:09:52.890 --> 00:09:54.270 who always told us the truth 214 00:09:54.270 --> 00:09:58.170 and always also tried to tell us what matters to us, 215 00:09:58.170 --> 00:10:00.420 we might call that person a friend. 216 00:10:00.420 --> 00:10:03.510 Yet we have been taught to struggle with helplessness. 217 00:10:03.510 --> 00:10:05.790 It shows up hundreds of times every day 218 00:10:05.790 --> 00:10:08.130 because of the things we can't control. 219 00:10:08.130 --> 00:10:10.230 And yet we've been taught to struggle with it 220 00:10:10.230 --> 00:10:12.300 and to keep trying to control things we can't. 221 00:10:12.300 --> 00:10:16.500 And that's wasted energy and can create suffering. 222 00:10:16.500 --> 00:10:19.620 And that helplessness rarely shows up alone. 223 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:22.470 It almost always is going to show with other emotions 224 00:10:22.470 --> 00:10:25.110 that will help with that second piece 225 00:10:25.110 --> 00:10:27.810 of what is it that I care about? 226 00:10:27.810 --> 00:10:30.630 So grief shows up in this example 227 00:10:30.630 --> 00:10:33.540 where I can't see my grandson's face. 228 00:10:33.540 --> 00:10:38.190 And the grief emotions show up to tell us 229 00:10:38.190 --> 00:10:40.560 that we are holding an attachment. 230 00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:45.560 We form attachments to people, to things and to ideas. 231 00:10:46.170 --> 00:10:48.900 We have many attachments to ideas. 232 00:10:48.900 --> 00:10:53.370 Our preferred ideas are wantings. We might call hopes. 233 00:10:53.370 --> 00:10:55.650 We might give them different names. 234 00:10:55.650 --> 00:10:59.520 But I clearly have an attachment to this idea 235 00:10:59.520 --> 00:11:02.430 of being able to see my grandson's face. 236 00:11:02.430 --> 00:11:07.430 So when life gives us information on our actual experience 237 00:11:07.800 --> 00:11:10.800 and some truths show up that say that this idea 238 00:11:10.800 --> 00:11:13.833 that you're attached to is not going to happen, 239 00:11:15.270 --> 00:11:18.450 then we have to detach from that attachment 240 00:11:18.450 --> 00:11:21.840 and let that idea go and that's grief. 241 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:23.190 Grief and loss. 242 00:11:23.190 --> 00:11:27.213 And depending on how deep or meaningful that attachment is, 243 00:11:27.213 --> 00:11:30.990 whether it's to a person, to a thing or to an idea, 244 00:11:30.990 --> 00:11:35.520 the level of pain of that grief will be higher or lower. 245 00:11:35.520 --> 00:11:40.200 So grief is telling us that when we're actually feeling it 246 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:42.300 and allowing it to flow like waves 247 00:11:42.300 --> 00:11:44.550 it means we are connecting to truth. 248 00:11:44.550 --> 00:11:48.232 We're not in denial. And that's important. 249 00:11:48.232 --> 00:11:51.270 The helplessness and grief are showing up 250 00:11:51.270 --> 00:11:55.320 when I connect to this idea and this truth. 251 00:11:55.320 --> 00:12:00.060 I can't see my grandson's face and I wish I could. 252 00:12:00.060 --> 00:12:03.090 So I'm going to go through the steps of connecting 253 00:12:03.090 --> 00:12:06.330 how these emotions are telling me what I care about. 254 00:12:06.330 --> 00:12:10.904 So I'll ask myself why does that matter to me? 255 00:12:10.904 --> 00:12:13.560 And then I'll connect to this other idea. 256 00:12:13.560 --> 00:12:16.830 Well, I don't want to miss a single nuance 257 00:12:16.830 --> 00:12:18.543 of my experience with him. 258 00:12:19.756 --> 00:12:22.950 And then I'll ask, well, why is that important to me? 259 00:12:22.950 --> 00:12:24.840 And then I can feel when I'm connected 260 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:26.853 to the deep core, core values, 261 00:12:28.020 --> 00:12:30.510 what I stand for is deep, enduring, 262 00:12:30.510 --> 00:12:33.600 loving relationships with the people I love. 263 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:37.020 And for all of those, I wouldn't want to miss nuances. 264 00:12:37.020 --> 00:12:40.953 But when I connect to that deeper core value, 265 00:12:41.970 --> 00:12:44.700 openings always happen because there are going to be 266 00:12:44.700 --> 00:12:47.280 other ideas that I can connect to then for 267 00:12:47.280 --> 00:12:50.370 how I can act on that core value 268 00:12:50.370 --> 00:12:54.660 even if this one idea cannot be acted on. 269 00:12:54.660 --> 00:12:57.870 When I connect to that, often memories or ideas 270 00:12:57.870 --> 00:13:01.080 from other people in my life might show up 271 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:02.730 that were meaningful to me. 272 00:13:02.730 --> 00:13:07.730 In this example, when I connect to being a loving person, 273 00:13:08.070 --> 00:13:12.630 I have memories of my mom, and my mom died in 2017 274 00:13:12.630 --> 00:13:14.430 from pancreatic cancer, 275 00:13:14.430 --> 00:13:18.180 but she was an incredible role model in my life. 276 00:13:18.180 --> 00:13:21.870 We grew up on a farm and she worked hard on that farm 277 00:13:21.870 --> 00:13:24.480 just like us, even though she was blind. 278 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:29.480 So my mom, by the time her grandchildren started showing up, 279 00:13:29.849 --> 00:13:31.863 she couldn't see their faces. 280 00:13:32.749 --> 00:13:37.208 From the day they were born, whenever she'd be holding them, 281 00:13:37.208 --> 00:13:41.220 many times, she would say, "I'm going to braille your face." 282 00:13:41.220 --> 00:13:43.560 And she would feel their faces. 283 00:13:43.560 --> 00:13:46.440 Then as they grew up, she'd say, "It's been a while. 284 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.950 I'm going to braille your face to see how you're changing." 285 00:13:49.950 --> 00:13:52.200 They just grew up knowing grandma 286 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:54.360 was going to braille their faces. 287 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:56.730 When my nieces were in their teens, 288 00:13:56.730 --> 00:14:00.120 for some reason when they had school dances 289 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:02.250 or other events where they were going to dress up, 290 00:14:02.250 --> 00:14:04.860 they liked to bring their makeup and clothes 291 00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:07.170 to my parents' house to get ready there. 292 00:14:07.170 --> 00:14:09.270 I'd be visiting sometimes, 293 00:14:09.270 --> 00:14:13.080 and my nieces would hog the back bedroom and the bathroom 294 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:15.553 until they were ready and then they'd come out 295 00:14:15.553 --> 00:14:17.767 all beautiful in their dresses and they say, 296 00:14:17.767 --> 00:14:20.277 "Grandma, we're ready for you to braille us." 297 00:14:21.261 --> 00:14:26.261 The room would just become filled with their giggles 298 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:31.080 and laughter and chatter and my mom's oohs and ahs, 299 00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:36.080 as she brailled their faces, gently touched their hairdos, 300 00:14:36.450 --> 00:14:39.810 felt the bows or ruffles, whatever their dresses were. 301 00:14:39.810 --> 00:14:42.660 She'd ask them to describe the colors. 302 00:14:42.660 --> 00:14:47.660 And the room would just be filled with joy and delight. 303 00:14:48.420 --> 00:14:52.560 And it didn't matter one bit that she couldn't see them. 304 00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:55.740 Those memories I connect to. 305 00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:57.023 Yeah. 306 00:14:57.023 --> 00:15:01.950 I have a grandson who is almost three years old. 307 00:15:01.950 --> 00:15:06.950 From the time of his birth till today when I hold him, 308 00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:10.227 I say, "I'm going to braille your face," 309 00:15:11.370 --> 00:15:14.170 and I touch his sweet face and his chubby cheeks 310 00:15:15.180 --> 00:15:19.203 and feel his hair and his little hands and feet, 311 00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:22.860 and I am just filled with so many emotions. 312 00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:26.310 And again, emotions show up to tell us what we care about. 313 00:15:26.310 --> 00:15:29.250 Yes, there's the grief and loss 314 00:15:29.250 --> 00:15:33.933 of not being able to see his face, but also missing my mom. 315 00:15:34.830 --> 00:15:37.350 I understand what that emotion is telling me, 316 00:15:37.350 --> 00:15:40.140 and I respect it, and I even have compassion 317 00:15:40.140 --> 00:15:43.137 for that emotion because it's affirming who I am, 318 00:15:43.137 --> 00:15:47.730 and I also feel such gratitude for having such a loving mom. 319 00:15:47.730 --> 00:15:50.313 I feel closer to her in those moments. 320 00:15:51.150 --> 00:15:55.770 So every emotion tells us very important information 321 00:15:55.770 --> 00:15:57.480 if we can open to it 322 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.213 and learn about our emotional world better. 323 00:16:01.110 --> 00:16:02.790 Those are wonderful stories, Ann. 324 00:16:02.790 --> 00:16:05.460 I so appreciate you sharing those stories 325 00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:07.800 and just the importance of understanding 326 00:16:07.800 --> 00:16:10.740 how our emotions show us what's meaningful to us. 327 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:11.943 I imagine though, 328 00:16:12.900 --> 00:16:15.120 it seems like you've really developed a skill 329 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.750 to be able to step back and recognize the importance 330 00:16:18.750 --> 00:16:20.250 of this emotion, and I think you said 331 00:16:20.250 --> 00:16:23.850 even have compassion for it at affirming who you are. 332 00:16:23.850 --> 00:16:25.410 I imagine for a lot of folks though, 333 00:16:25.410 --> 00:16:27.840 it's tough to step back from these really difficult 334 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:29.580 and painful emotions like helplessness 335 00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:33.660 and grief or sadness or anger and look at it 336 00:16:33.660 --> 00:16:35.883 in the same way that you're able to do that. 337 00:16:36.998 --> 00:16:38.970 I imagine sometimes getting other people 338 00:16:38.970 --> 00:16:41.550 to help you understand what those emotions 339 00:16:41.550 --> 00:16:44.070 are telling you could be really important as well, 340 00:16:44.070 --> 00:16:46.739 whether that's a close friend or a professional. 341 00:16:46.739 --> 00:16:50.610 I've heard you talk about this concept or idea 342 00:16:50.610 --> 00:16:53.970 of village moments and connectedness 343 00:16:53.970 --> 00:16:55.380 and the importance of relationships. 344 00:16:55.380 --> 00:16:58.890 Do you mind sharing a little bit more about the idea 345 00:16:58.890 --> 00:17:01.350 of village moments and why they're important, 346 00:17:01.350 --> 00:17:04.290 particularly for folks living with vision loss? 347 00:17:04.290 --> 00:17:05.123 Yeah. 348 00:17:06.313 --> 00:17:11.313 I have this idea that in the very early years of humanity, 349 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:15.840 our ancestors were probably all in villages 350 00:17:15.840 --> 00:17:20.840 where they felt seen and known and secure 351 00:17:20.850 --> 00:17:24.180 with people knowing what things came easily for us 352 00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:27.000 or what things were more challenging. 353 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:29.640 And when there was something weighing heavy on us, 354 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:32.670 we had people to listen and be there. 355 00:17:32.670 --> 00:17:35.610 And we are still born as social creatures, 356 00:17:35.610 --> 00:17:38.793 and of course we need a sense of belongingness. 357 00:17:39.750 --> 00:17:42.210 There's a theory from the '70s 358 00:17:42.210 --> 00:17:43.770 called the social buffering theory. 359 00:17:43.770 --> 00:17:45.966 At least I think it was the '70s. 360 00:17:45.966 --> 00:17:50.550 That when we have adequate social support, 361 00:17:50.550 --> 00:17:53.013 and by that I mean emotional support, 362 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:56.820 it can buffer the negative effects of stressors 363 00:17:56.820 --> 00:18:00.390 in our lives, even trauma level. 364 00:18:00.390 --> 00:18:04.230 And that a lot of people think the support that's needed 365 00:18:04.230 --> 00:18:09.230 is advice and that's not really what I'm talking about. 366 00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:13.380 We need to feel a sense of safety and security 367 00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:16.320 in our sharings of our deeper emotional pain 368 00:18:16.320 --> 00:18:18.330 or even moments of joy. 369 00:18:18.330 --> 00:18:19.297 Sometimes we just feel like, 370 00:18:19.297 --> 00:18:22.470 "Oh, I want to share this story with someone," 371 00:18:22.470 --> 00:18:25.357 because it gives us that sense of belongingness. 372 00:18:25.357 --> 00:18:28.170 When two people show up, being able 373 00:18:28.170 --> 00:18:33.170 to share from this deep, real, and authentic place, 374 00:18:33.390 --> 00:18:35.160 I call that village moments. 375 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:36.960 And it's where healing can happen, 376 00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:39.180 and transformation can happen. 377 00:18:39.180 --> 00:18:41.430 If we don't have people in our lives 378 00:18:41.430 --> 00:18:44.040 that we can feel that level of security 379 00:18:44.040 --> 00:18:47.760 or even within ourselves, if we've had so much programming 380 00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:51.630 that we just don't feel safe to open up to that deeper pain 381 00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:54.810 within ourselves, then find a professional. 382 00:18:54.810 --> 00:18:59.430 But I like to share this idea by Diana Fosha. 383 00:18:59.430 --> 00:19:01.200 She developed accelerated 384 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:04.153 experiential dynamic psychotherapy. 385 00:19:04.153 --> 00:19:06.600 In some of her writings she talks about 386 00:19:06.600 --> 00:19:09.540 how really the core of human suffering 387 00:19:09.540 --> 00:19:11.793 is profound loneliness. 388 00:19:13.110 --> 00:19:17.160 When we do experience something really painful 389 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:19.950 and we don't feel that sense of security 390 00:19:19.950 --> 00:19:24.450 and safety that we can share and not feel judged 391 00:19:24.450 --> 00:19:27.150 or have somebody still feel distant from us 392 00:19:27.150 --> 00:19:31.223 because they're in their head thinking of advice to give us 393 00:19:31.223 --> 00:19:33.840 instead of just really being with us, 394 00:19:33.840 --> 00:19:36.840 we are going to learn all sorts of ways 395 00:19:36.840 --> 00:19:41.840 to protect from the feeling of the painful emotion, 396 00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:45.226 and we're going to feel that deep loneliness. 397 00:19:45.226 --> 00:19:48.183 When you feel so alone with that kind of pain, 398 00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:51.240 it's really painful. 399 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:55.140 So, I had many veterans over the years talk about 400 00:19:55.140 --> 00:19:57.640 when we're processing trauma memories 401 00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:02.670 or other healing work that they wanted to do in the therapy, 402 00:20:02.670 --> 00:20:05.460 and I would share words from other veterans 403 00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:07.170 to see if they resonated with them. 404 00:20:07.170 --> 00:20:08.227 I'd tell them that some people say, 405 00:20:08.227 --> 00:20:09.970 "Yes, there's incredible pain 406 00:20:10.890 --> 00:20:13.800 related to the trauma memory itself, 407 00:20:13.800 --> 00:20:17.820 but what's even more painful is feeling alone with it." 408 00:20:17.820 --> 00:20:21.240 And I would have veterans start to cry at that point 409 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:22.710 and they're like, "Yes, I connect 410 00:20:22.710 --> 00:20:24.810 to what those other veterans were saying." 411 00:20:25.770 --> 00:20:28.650 And so this profound loneliness. 412 00:20:28.650 --> 00:20:31.950 It's important to validate those experiences 413 00:20:31.950 --> 00:20:34.470 and it's so important to feel heard. 414 00:20:34.470 --> 00:20:36.450 If we don't have people in our lives 415 00:20:36.450 --> 00:20:40.140 that we can feel that level of safety and security to share 416 00:20:40.140 --> 00:20:41.880 and trust that we won't be judged 417 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:44.550 or that they're going to just give us advice 418 00:20:44.550 --> 00:20:46.530 that we're not asking for, 419 00:20:46.530 --> 00:20:51.210 then trying to find a therapist is highly recommended. 420 00:20:51.210 --> 00:20:54.600 I like to help with stigma. It's decreasing. 421 00:20:54.600 --> 00:20:57.120 I think every year the stigma 422 00:20:57.120 --> 00:20:59.790 against seeking mental health care 423 00:20:59.790 --> 00:21:01.830 is getting better and better and better 424 00:21:01.830 --> 00:21:05.370 because so many people know it's healthy. 425 00:21:05.370 --> 00:21:07.770 It's like you're going to exercise for your health. 426 00:21:07.770 --> 00:21:09.930 You can seek therapy for your health. 427 00:21:09.930 --> 00:21:12.450 I'm very open that I sought therapy. 428 00:21:12.450 --> 00:21:13.560 People with vision loss 429 00:21:13.560 --> 00:21:16.770 are at higher risk for anxiety and depression, 430 00:21:16.770 --> 00:21:20.250 and I had more of the anxiety side to things here. 431 00:21:20.250 --> 00:21:25.020 So I completed a course of therapy for anxiety, 432 00:21:25.020 --> 00:21:27.570 and it was incredibly helpful and I felt heard 433 00:21:27.570 --> 00:21:30.630 and understood, and that's so important. 434 00:21:30.630 --> 00:21:31.560 Yeah. 435 00:21:31.560 --> 00:21:32.730 And I love the concept 436 00:21:32.730 --> 00:21:35.820 of village moments, this connectedness. 437 00:21:35.820 --> 00:21:38.090 So that's kind of what we were made for 438 00:21:38.090 --> 00:21:39.960 is what I'm hearing you say as well. 439 00:21:39.960 --> 00:21:40.830 Yeah. 440 00:21:40.830 --> 00:21:45.150 We were made for relationships and connection. 441 00:21:45.150 --> 00:21:47.670 A lot of the folks that find us here at Hadley 442 00:21:47.670 --> 00:21:50.040 are new to vision loss. 443 00:21:50.040 --> 00:21:53.730 They're kind of new to this whole way of life. 444 00:21:53.730 --> 00:21:55.080 Can you talk a little bit about 445 00:21:55.080 --> 00:21:57.780 how that might even have more of an effect 446 00:21:57.780 --> 00:22:01.503 on these feelings of loneliness or isolation? 447 00:22:02.370 --> 00:22:03.203 Yeah. 448 00:22:03.203 --> 00:22:05.250 Well, 10 to 20% 449 00:22:05.250 --> 00:22:10.250 of retinitis pigmentosa gene types are recessive, 450 00:22:11.310 --> 00:22:13.830 which means there isn't going to be another person 451 00:22:13.830 --> 00:22:16.080 in their family probably. 452 00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:19.020 Like I had this incredible blessing 453 00:22:19.020 --> 00:22:23.700 of growing up in a blind culture, but most people are alone. 454 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:25.080 They don't have role models. 455 00:22:25.080 --> 00:22:28.770 They don't know anybody else experiencing vision loss 456 00:22:28.770 --> 00:22:33.770 and that would feel so, so lonely and kind of scary. 457 00:22:36.510 --> 00:22:41.510 That's why resources and connecting to communities 458 00:22:41.550 --> 00:22:45.030 that support people with vision loss is just so important. 459 00:22:45.030 --> 00:22:47.880 I wouldn't want anybody to go through this alone. 460 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:50.490 That would be so overwhelming. 461 00:22:50.490 --> 00:22:53.040 That's why I loved hearing about Hadley Helps 462 00:22:53.040 --> 00:22:56.153 and your peer-to-peer program, connecting people one-on-one 463 00:22:56.153 --> 00:22:58.350 so they can do their deeper sharing 464 00:22:58.350 --> 00:23:01.740 or all the different things you're doing. 465 00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:04.800 Foundation Fighting Blindness also has, 466 00:23:04.800 --> 00:23:06.630 each state has its own chapter 467 00:23:06.630 --> 00:23:09.930 and communities of support are happening through that. 468 00:23:09.930 --> 00:23:12.330 There are resources out there. 469 00:23:12.330 --> 00:23:15.390 And state services for the blind 470 00:23:15.390 --> 00:23:19.260 or the vocational rehabilitation programs in most states 471 00:23:19.260 --> 00:23:23.670 have vision rehab, rehabilitation services 472 00:23:23.670 --> 00:23:28.670 that can also help with adjustment by experts who can help. 473 00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:30.660 So that can help people feel 474 00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:35.220 a little less alone and with people who understand. 475 00:23:35.220 --> 00:23:36.053 Yeah. 476 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:39.300 Part of my job is just getting to know folks 477 00:23:39.300 --> 00:23:41.450 and spending some time hearing their story. 478 00:23:43.110 --> 00:23:45.037 When I hear people talk about, like 479 00:23:45.037 --> 00:23:47.490 "I don't know anybody else who's visually impaired. 480 00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:49.469 I'm kind of in this by myself," 481 00:23:49.469 --> 00:23:51.750 it just makes me want to feel like we're here 482 00:23:51.750 --> 00:23:53.640 and we want to connect you with somebody. 483 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.460 I'm glad you mentioned our peer-to-peer program. 484 00:23:56.460 --> 00:23:58.200 One of the women that I met, she shared 485 00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:02.340 that she lives with her husband in the same house together, 486 00:24:02.340 --> 00:24:04.230 and she has grown children 487 00:24:04.230 --> 00:24:06.600 that come and visit quite frequently, 488 00:24:06.600 --> 00:24:09.480 and grandkids that are kind of running around the room. 489 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:12.750 And she said, "With all these people in my life, 490 00:24:12.750 --> 00:24:13.800 everything that's going on," 491 00:24:13.800 --> 00:24:16.080 she's like, "I've never felt so alone. 492 00:24:16.080 --> 00:24:17.910 Because of my vision loss, 493 00:24:17.910 --> 00:24:20.520 I don't feel like I have somebody to talk to about it. 494 00:24:20.520 --> 00:24:22.800 If I could just spend time with somebody 495 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:25.140 who understands what I'm going through, 496 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:26.640 I think that would make all the difference." 497 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.650 And so we were able to connect her 498 00:24:28.650 --> 00:24:29.820 in our peer-to-peer program 499 00:24:29.820 --> 00:24:31.770 with somebody who had a similar eye condition 500 00:24:31.770 --> 00:24:33.150 and similar life experiences. 501 00:24:33.150 --> 00:24:36.600 And she said, "This was the missing piece for me." 502 00:24:36.600 --> 00:24:40.110 Which is just so fulfilling to hear comments like that. 503 00:24:40.110 --> 00:24:43.590 Yeah. And she was listening our core selves. 504 00:24:43.590 --> 00:24:45.990 It's a theory, but I absolutely believe it's true 505 00:24:45.990 --> 00:24:48.660 that we all have an adaptive energy 506 00:24:48.660 --> 00:24:53.370 that we can connect to or wants us to connect to it 507 00:24:53.370 --> 00:24:57.300 to help adjust and cope as part of resiliency. 508 00:24:57.300 --> 00:24:59.827 And she was listening to her core self saying, 509 00:24:59.827 --> 00:25:02.820 "If I just had somebody I could talk to 510 00:25:02.820 --> 00:25:04.620 who might understand." 511 00:25:04.620 --> 00:25:08.370 She knew what she needed, what feels healthy and healing 512 00:25:08.370 --> 00:25:09.423 and what doesn't. 513 00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:11.463 That's so lovely. 514 00:25:13.961 --> 00:25:17.460 I just hope more and more programs can find ways to help 515 00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:21.180 because the anticipated rates of people with vision loss 516 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:24.360 are growing as people live longer 517 00:25:24.360 --> 00:25:28.650 and there's a lot of people experiencing vision loss 518 00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:29.866 or who will. 519 00:25:29.866 --> 00:25:30.817 That's right. 520 00:25:30.817 --> 00:25:33.930 You know, I imagine, you know, 521 00:25:33.930 --> 00:25:37.170 all this complex grief you talk about, all these emotions 522 00:25:37.170 --> 00:25:39.880 that can just kind of overwhelm us sometimes 523 00:25:40.890 --> 00:25:43.980 and with these challenges that come with vision loss. 524 00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:46.110 I imagine it can sometimes consume you 525 00:25:46.110 --> 00:25:47.280 even to the point where you feel like, 526 00:25:47.280 --> 00:25:49.443 okay, this is who I am now. 527 00:25:51.082 --> 00:25:52.350 It forces us to form new identity. 528 00:25:52.350 --> 00:25:53.700 Have you felt that way yourself, 529 00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:55.560 and what would you offer to folks 530 00:25:55.560 --> 00:25:58.350 who might be feeling that way as well? 531 00:25:58.350 --> 00:26:01.050 Yeah. It's such a good question. 532 00:26:01.050 --> 00:26:04.800 When I started wanting to date, I would lead with, 533 00:26:04.800 --> 00:26:05.930 by the way... 534 00:26:05.930 --> 00:26:08.310 At that point, I wasn't using my white cane yet. 535 00:26:08.310 --> 00:26:10.203 You couldn't tell by looking at me. 536 00:26:11.340 --> 00:26:13.410 I would let people know, "Hey, I'm losing my vision." 537 00:26:13.410 --> 00:26:16.290 And I led with that as if that was my identity, 538 00:26:16.290 --> 00:26:18.157 because I wanted them to have a chance to say, 539 00:26:18.157 --> 00:26:22.047 "Oh, I don't want that to be with somebody 540 00:26:22.047 --> 00:26:24.390 with blindness in my life." 541 00:26:24.390 --> 00:26:28.740 And yet, because of my own personal growth and work 542 00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:32.760 and these concepts I learned from my professional work, 543 00:26:32.760 --> 00:26:35.400 I absolutely no longer feel 544 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:38.400 like I have that internalized self-esteem 545 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:40.113 as somehow being less than. 546 00:26:41.250 --> 00:26:44.130 Being surrounded by such a loving partner 547 00:26:44.130 --> 00:26:46.020 who treats me as an equal 548 00:26:46.020 --> 00:26:49.893 and just lovely friends and of course my family. 549 00:26:51.270 --> 00:26:54.130 But what's helped me in particular 550 00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:58.620 is this principle from narrative therapy 551 00:26:58.620 --> 00:27:03.620 about the idea of how problems are external to who we are. 552 00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:06.420 To recognize that the blindness, 553 00:27:06.420 --> 00:27:09.030 it's an experience I'm having. 554 00:27:09.030 --> 00:27:13.110 It's separate from me, the whole person who I am. 555 00:27:13.110 --> 00:27:14.730 And it may walk alongside me 556 00:27:14.730 --> 00:27:16.260 and it's going to have its effects 557 00:27:16.260 --> 00:27:19.320 and each of those effects are an experience. 558 00:27:19.320 --> 00:27:21.240 They're not who I am. 559 00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:26.130 So I will refer to blindness moments of humor and hilarity 560 00:27:26.130 --> 00:27:27.940 because they certainly help create 561 00:27:29.280 --> 00:27:31.740 as well as, of course, moments of grief 562 00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:35.310 and sorrow and other emotions of frustration. 563 00:27:35.310 --> 00:27:38.553 But I am not the blindness. I'm Ann. 564 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:43.740 Our identities are really more about what do you stand for, 565 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:45.540 what matters to you. 566 00:27:45.540 --> 00:27:49.320 And we can live those values in many, many different ways. 567 00:27:49.320 --> 00:27:51.810 The disabilities or the limitations, 568 00:27:51.810 --> 00:27:56.400 whatever word we choose to use to describe bodily changes 569 00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.060 or losses of vision, those are just companions 570 00:28:00.060 --> 00:28:03.420 that maybe we didn't want in our lives, 571 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:07.140 but we can actually, potentially at least, respect 572 00:28:07.140 --> 00:28:09.630 and appreciate that they're external to us 573 00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:11.910 and we can give them our own names. 574 00:28:11.910 --> 00:28:15.930 I know mine, I'll be free in my transparency. 575 00:28:15.930 --> 00:28:17.340 I tend to fret. 576 00:28:17.340 --> 00:28:21.390 I'm a bit of a worrier. And that was part of... 577 00:28:21.390 --> 00:28:23.670 So staying in my head with the worry thoughts of 578 00:28:23.670 --> 00:28:25.440 what if this or what if that. 579 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.650 The what-ifs kind of keep me in my head, 580 00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:31.923 and it is a form of distancing from my core emotions. 581 00:28:33.030 --> 00:28:35.070 So I name my patterns. 582 00:28:35.070 --> 00:28:37.560 I've recognized when that's showing up 583 00:28:37.560 --> 00:28:39.270 that there's a need for me to slow down 584 00:28:39.270 --> 00:28:41.250 and think about what is the core emotion really 585 00:28:41.250 --> 00:28:44.940 that I'm trying to avoid here and to learn to be with it. 586 00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:47.940 But I name all my protective patterns Melvin. 587 00:28:47.940 --> 00:28:48.773 Melvin. 588 00:28:48.773 --> 00:28:51.033 Melvin, yeah. So that's one of my Melvins. 589 00:28:52.890 --> 00:28:57.047 No offense to anybody named Melvin. It's a fine name. 590 00:28:57.047 --> 00:28:59.370 It just helps me smile 591 00:28:59.370 --> 00:29:01.260 and it helps me relate to the patterns 592 00:29:01.260 --> 00:29:04.650 in a completely non-judgmental way. 593 00:29:04.650 --> 00:29:07.920 These patterns were programmed. None of us are to blame. 594 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.340 We've all been taught these messages 595 00:29:11.340 --> 00:29:13.950 to try to avoid what we feel. 596 00:29:13.950 --> 00:29:18.633 So that's one of my Melvins. And overthinking. 597 00:29:18.633 --> 00:29:23.610 There's a lot of things, but I named mine Melvins. 598 00:29:23.610 --> 00:29:27.210 What I encourage people when they're looking at the patterns 599 00:29:27.210 --> 00:29:28.980 of things they're doing is just ask, 600 00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:31.500 is this a valued activity? 601 00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:33.033 Is it meaningful to me? 602 00:29:33.881 --> 00:29:38.520 Is it feeling helpful in some way that feels healthy? 603 00:29:38.520 --> 00:29:42.390 Or is it potentially one of those self-protective patterns? 604 00:29:42.390 --> 00:29:45.150 Because I'm not feeling like I can safely 605 00:29:45.150 --> 00:29:48.780 or securely connect to what's going on deeper 606 00:29:48.780 --> 00:29:53.490 and start to consider ways to maybe connect to your emotions 607 00:29:53.490 --> 00:29:58.020 or take a risk to share with somebody and see how it goes. 608 00:29:58.020 --> 00:30:01.320 And I will tell people, and it's what I do, 609 00:30:01.320 --> 00:30:05.190 is I will ask Eric, for example, my husband, 610 00:30:05.190 --> 00:30:07.740 when I'm feeling the need to just feel heard, 611 00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:09.480 I'll set the frame in advance. 612 00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.390 I'll say, "There's something kind of weighing on me 613 00:30:12.390 --> 00:30:14.970 that's feels kind of heavy and I want to share it, 614 00:30:14.970 --> 00:30:19.970 and I really just need you to listen and just love me. 615 00:30:20.023 --> 00:30:24.447 Just care for me. I'm not asking for any kind of advice." 616 00:30:25.290 --> 00:30:28.470 So letting people know that upfront helps a lot. 617 00:30:28.470 --> 00:30:29.303 That's a great idea. 618 00:30:29.303 --> 00:30:33.540 And I'll validate when somebody does give advice. 619 00:30:33.540 --> 00:30:35.430 I know they're trying to be helpful 620 00:30:35.430 --> 00:30:36.570 because they care about me. 621 00:30:36.570 --> 00:30:40.890 That action is quite valued for people giving it, 622 00:30:40.890 --> 00:30:44.220 but they just don't understand in the moment 623 00:30:44.220 --> 00:30:45.900 what I really need. 624 00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:49.560 Or they're feeling so uncomfortable with my distress 625 00:30:49.560 --> 00:30:50.760 that they want to ease it, 626 00:30:50.760 --> 00:30:52.770 so their minds are giving them an idea, 627 00:30:52.770 --> 00:30:54.780 and they become very attached to that idea. 628 00:30:54.780 --> 00:30:57.510 Like, "Oh, if they just do this, this and this, 629 00:30:57.510 --> 00:30:59.160 then Ann won't feel this distress. 630 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:01.257 So I'm going to give her this idea." 631 00:31:01.257 --> 00:31:03.787 So we get attached to our own ideas like, 632 00:31:03.787 --> 00:31:06.660 "Oh, if somebody just does this, they'll feel better." 633 00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:10.440 Because we care and we want that, but look what's happening. 634 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:12.720 We're getting attached to an idea 635 00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:16.020 and we're putting it at the foot of somebody else 636 00:31:16.020 --> 00:31:17.820 without necessarily checking in: 637 00:31:17.820 --> 00:31:20.313 is that what they're wanting or needing from us? 638 00:31:21.600 --> 00:31:25.020 And it happens so fast and so subtly 639 00:31:25.020 --> 00:31:28.440 that I just encourage people to check in with each other. 640 00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:30.780 What is it you're needing? 641 00:31:30.780 --> 00:31:32.880 Or, hey, I'm really going to try to work 642 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.370 on being just a listener. 643 00:31:35.370 --> 00:31:38.100 And even though my mind may give me ideas to give advice, 644 00:31:38.100 --> 00:31:40.890 I'm going to try to just observe that chatter 645 00:31:40.890 --> 00:31:45.390 and still show up in a real way with the people I love. 646 00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:50.130 And again, when I heard about your approach 647 00:31:50.130 --> 00:31:52.770 with that help desk and the peer to peer, 648 00:31:54.300 --> 00:31:57.810 my core just felt this warmth and respect for you 649 00:31:57.810 --> 00:32:01.860 and having help staff because you're... 650 00:32:01.860 --> 00:32:04.440 It's like you're all psychodynamic therapists. 651 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:07.500 You know the importance of belongingness 652 00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:10.590 and just being with it is actually healing 653 00:32:10.590 --> 00:32:13.323 and it's doing something so important. 654 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:16.860 Well, Ann, I want to thank you so much 655 00:32:16.860 --> 00:32:19.260 for just spending this time with me here today. 656 00:32:19.260 --> 00:32:20.700 I know when we put this on the calendar, 657 00:32:20.700 --> 00:32:22.860 I was eagerly anticipating it, 658 00:32:22.860 --> 00:32:24.630 and it was well worth the wait. 659 00:32:24.630 --> 00:32:25.770 Such a wonderful conversation. 660 00:32:25.770 --> 00:32:28.620 I feel like we could keep talking all day too. 661 00:32:28.620 --> 00:32:30.060 But maybe you'd be willing to join us 662 00:32:30.060 --> 00:32:34.410 on another episode down the road here in the future. 663 00:32:34.410 --> 00:32:35.640 Absolutely. 664 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:36.750 Yeah. 665 00:32:36.750 --> 00:32:40.950 Your personal stories, I just appreciate you being so open 666 00:32:40.950 --> 00:32:44.130 and just sharing those and then your professional insights 667 00:32:44.130 --> 00:32:45.720 I think are so helpful. 668 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:47.220 So again, just thank you. 669 00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:49.170 Thank you so much for this conversation today. 670 00:32:49.170 --> 00:32:50.670 I really appreciate it. 671 00:32:50.670 --> 00:32:52.263 You're welcome. Thank you. 672 00:32:53.790 --> 00:32:55.470 Got something to say? 673 00:32:55.470 --> 00:32:58.890 Share your thoughts about this episode of "Hadley Presents" 674 00:32:58.890 --> 00:33:01.500 or make suggestions for future episodes. 675 00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:03.210 We'd love to hear from you. 676 00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:08.190 Send us an email at podcast@hadleyhelps.org. 677 00:33:08.190 --> 00:33:13.190 That's podcast@hadleyhelps.org. 678 00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:19.410 Or leave us a message at 847-784-2870. 679 00:33:21.630 --> 00:33:22.743 Thanks for listening.