WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.840 --> 00:00:03.960 When you're the only person you know with vision loss, 2 00:00:03.960 --> 00:00:06.900 it's easy to feel like you're going through it alone. 3 00:00:06.900 --> 00:00:10.290 In this episode, Hadley's Marc Arneson joins us 4 00:00:10.290 --> 00:00:12.337 as we talk about our sister podcast, 5 00:00:12.337 --> 00:00:15.030 "Insights & Sound Bites," where people share 6 00:00:15.030 --> 00:00:18.480 what has helped them to cope and adjust. 7 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:22.440 I'm Ricky Enger, and this is "Hadley Presents." 8 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:24.180 Welcome to the show, Marc. 9 00:00:24.180 --> 00:00:25.050 Thanks, Ricky. 10 00:00:25.050 --> 00:00:26.070 So good to be back. 11 00:00:26.070 --> 00:00:28.710 Yes, it has been a while, and in fact, 12 00:00:28.710 --> 00:00:31.380 you've had a title change since the last time 13 00:00:31.380 --> 00:00:34.680 you were here, and so have I for that matter so- 14 00:00:34.680 --> 00:00:35.910 That's right. 15 00:00:35.910 --> 00:00:38.430 You are now, what's your title? 16 00:00:38.430 --> 00:00:40.200 My title is director of emotional 17 00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:41.730 and social support here at Hadley. 18 00:00:41.730 --> 00:00:43.650 So some of the new things that we're doing to try 19 00:00:43.650 --> 00:00:45.150 and help with some of the emotional challenges 20 00:00:45.150 --> 00:00:46.050 that come with vision loss, 21 00:00:46.050 --> 00:00:47.970 I'm getting involved in some of that. 22 00:00:47.970 --> 00:00:49.320 Yes, awesome. 23 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:53.190 And I am the director of practical help. 24 00:00:53.190 --> 00:00:56.340 So the reason I bring this up is we will be hearing 25 00:00:56.340 --> 00:00:59.550 a few stories today that kind of 26 00:00:59.550 --> 00:01:01.710 encapsulate both those things. 27 00:01:01.710 --> 00:01:04.260 And I don't know why I find that surprising 28 00:01:04.260 --> 00:01:07.740 because when you're going through an adjustment like this, 29 00:01:07.740 --> 00:01:10.890 or maybe your vision loss has always been at the level 30 00:01:10.890 --> 00:01:13.140 it is now, but you're living in a world 31 00:01:13.140 --> 00:01:15.630 that isn't necessarily designed for you, 32 00:01:15.630 --> 00:01:18.120 there's both of those challenges, right? 33 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:20.670 The practical help, you know, what do I do? 34 00:01:20.670 --> 00:01:23.820 How do I figure out how to find my way around 35 00:01:23.820 --> 00:01:25.080 or cook or clean? 36 00:01:25.080 --> 00:01:26.940 And then of course there's your side, Marc. 37 00:01:26.940 --> 00:01:29.880 So what are the things that people tend to deal with 38 00:01:29.880 --> 00:01:32.160 from the social emotional side? 39 00:01:32.160 --> 00:01:34.740 You know, some of the things that I often hear from folks 40 00:01:34.740 --> 00:01:36.780 who are reaching out to us is sometimes 41 00:01:36.780 --> 00:01:37.950 they're the only person they know 42 00:01:37.950 --> 00:01:39.390 that is dealing with vision loss 43 00:01:39.390 --> 00:01:41.400 and there can be a lot of isolation with that 44 00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:42.600 and some loneliness. 45 00:01:42.600 --> 00:01:46.020 And you know, as the vision continues to decline, you know, 46 00:01:46.020 --> 00:01:47.880 relationships change, you know, 47 00:01:47.880 --> 00:01:50.190 both dynamics within perhaps a marriage 48 00:01:50.190 --> 00:01:53.370 or parent-child relationships or even friendships. 49 00:01:53.370 --> 00:01:56.610 And so, you know, oftentimes, we're trying to help folks 50 00:01:56.610 --> 00:01:58.410 find a space where they can kind of talk about that 51 00:01:58.410 --> 00:02:00.279 and explore some of that stuff. 52 00:02:00.279 --> 00:02:03.330 And I think one thing that really helps people 53 00:02:03.330 --> 00:02:06.300 is to know you are not alone. 54 00:02:06.300 --> 00:02:10.680 It's not just you who's going through whatever this is. 55 00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:14.430 And while every person's story is different, 56 00:02:14.430 --> 00:02:17.400 there do seem to be just some common threads 57 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:20.310 I feel like that come up over and over again. 58 00:02:20.310 --> 00:02:24.120 And that's one of the reasons 59 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:28.267 that we have created the sister podcast 60 00:02:28.267 --> 00:02:31.530 "Insights & Sound Bites" so it's where people call us 61 00:02:31.530 --> 00:02:34.560 or send us recordings through our website 62 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:36.720 and we'll talk about how to do that at the end of this. 63 00:02:36.720 --> 00:02:39.840 But people who are willing to share their stories. 64 00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:44.840 And I think it's been tremendous just hearing from people. 65 00:02:44.970 --> 00:02:46.762 It's interesting, Ricky, in preparation for this, 66 00:02:46.762 --> 00:02:49.680 and you know, just in thinking ahead about this time today, 67 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:50.670 I spent some time listening to 68 00:02:50.670 --> 00:02:52.710 some of the different episodes, and you're right, 69 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:54.840 there are just some common themes that we hear from folks, 70 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:56.490 but they're just so powerful. 71 00:02:56.490 --> 00:02:58.710 These personal stories, you know, of challenges 72 00:02:58.710 --> 00:03:00.480 that some of our members are facing, 73 00:03:00.480 --> 00:03:02.490 but then, you know, how they've overcome. 74 00:03:02.490 --> 00:03:05.070 But I know that, you know, it is really cool 75 00:03:05.070 --> 00:03:07.650 to hear the ways that folks are managing 76 00:03:07.650 --> 00:03:09.330 some of these difficult situations 77 00:03:09.330 --> 00:03:11.310 and coming out with more hope. 78 00:03:11.310 --> 00:03:12.480 Absolutely. 79 00:03:12.480 --> 00:03:16.140 So in this episode, we're just gonna play a few of these 80 00:03:16.140 --> 00:03:18.300 and we'll comment on them. 81 00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:19.920 You know, we'll keep it short because 82 00:03:19.920 --> 00:03:22.260 it's really about sharing these stories 83 00:03:22.260 --> 00:03:24.750 more than what we have to say about them. 84 00:03:24.750 --> 00:03:26.280 They're all so, so good. 85 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:28.170 And I think the ones we've chosen 86 00:03:28.170 --> 00:03:32.820 are just some of the top things that we hear from people. 87 00:03:32.820 --> 00:03:34.627 And one of those things is, 88 00:03:34.627 --> 00:03:36.750 "Hey, this was such a surprise to me. 89 00:03:36.750 --> 00:03:38.940 It came out of nowhere." 90 00:03:38.940 --> 00:03:41.070 And then, "How do I deal with that?" 91 00:03:41.070 --> 00:03:44.943 So to represent that, up first we're gonna hear from Emma. 92 00:03:46.770 --> 00:03:48.993 My name is Emma D. 93 00:03:50.073 --> 00:03:51.573 I am 77 years old. 94 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:54.543 I live in Illinois. 95 00:03:56.040 --> 00:03:59.280 My blindness occurred four years ago. 96 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:02.970 It took me totally surprised. 97 00:04:02.970 --> 00:04:05.160 I went to the doctor, like, in November, 98 00:04:05.160 --> 00:04:08.640 found out I went blind in March. 99 00:04:08.640 --> 00:04:11.220 I had no kind of preparation. 100 00:04:11.220 --> 00:04:13.710 And that's what bothered me the most. 101 00:04:13.710 --> 00:04:16.590 And I had to get past psychologically 102 00:04:16.590 --> 00:04:20.370 because I didn't have time to prepare myself. 103 00:04:20.370 --> 00:04:24.840 And I am an avid reader, I was a teacher, 104 00:04:24.840 --> 00:04:26.910 and I loved to travel. 105 00:04:26.910 --> 00:04:28.830 I mean, travel was my thing. 106 00:04:28.830 --> 00:04:31.800 Seeing things, writing down things, 107 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:35.820 sending memos out to people, sending cars out to people. 108 00:04:35.820 --> 00:04:40.530 That was my love, and it kept me going for years. 109 00:04:40.530 --> 00:04:42.933 All of a sudden, I went blind. 110 00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:45.900 I had been around maybe 111 00:04:45.900 --> 00:04:48.543 just a couple of blind people in my life. 112 00:04:49.380 --> 00:04:51.693 I didn't know the struggles that they had. 113 00:04:51.693 --> 00:04:54.810 I didn't know the challenges they had. 114 00:04:54.810 --> 00:04:57.660 But then when it hit me smack in the face, 115 00:04:57.660 --> 00:04:59.733 it was totally different. 116 00:05:00.690 --> 00:05:04.230 It was something that it was hard for me to accept. 117 00:05:04.230 --> 00:05:09.210 I never really said "Why me?" but I did say, "Why?" 118 00:05:09.210 --> 00:05:11.460 And right now, I'm gonna be honest with you, 119 00:05:11.460 --> 00:05:13.350 I wanna see right now. 120 00:05:13.350 --> 00:05:15.150 I miss the sun. 121 00:05:15.150 --> 00:05:18.063 I haven't seen the sun in four years. 122 00:05:18.930 --> 00:05:20.583 I miss my reading. 123 00:05:21.510 --> 00:05:24.213 I couldn't even write my own name. 124 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:29.820 It's hard enough being blind and you feel sort of insecure 125 00:05:29.820 --> 00:05:32.133 and your self-esteem has sort of plummeted. 126 00:05:33.030 --> 00:05:35.640 Blindness is not only blindness. 127 00:05:35.640 --> 00:05:39.750 Blindness is psychologically, it's physically, 128 00:05:39.750 --> 00:05:44.220 it's mentally, it's spiritually, it's anything you wanna say 129 00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:49.220 because when you are blind, you have to start all over. 130 00:05:49.500 --> 00:05:52.590 The frustrating times that I run into 131 00:05:52.590 --> 00:05:56.940 is when I turn around sometimes and I get lost. 132 00:05:56.940 --> 00:05:59.880 You can get lost in your own home 133 00:05:59.880 --> 00:06:03.600 and then I have to feel something to bring my sight back 134 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:08.133 and I just sometimes have to just stop and scream. 135 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:14.310 And then I settle down and I pray and I touch something 136 00:06:14.310 --> 00:06:16.830 and I remember this is where I am. 137 00:06:16.830 --> 00:06:18.390 Emma, this is where you are. 138 00:06:18.390 --> 00:06:20.460 Settle down, this is where you are. 139 00:06:20.460 --> 00:06:22.830 This is something you're going through. 140 00:06:22.830 --> 00:06:24.990 This isn't the end of the road for you. 141 00:06:24.990 --> 00:06:26.760 You're going through it. 142 00:06:26.760 --> 00:06:30.660 So just deal with it with as much grace as you can. 143 00:06:30.660 --> 00:06:34.260 And that's how I make it on a day-to-day basis. 144 00:06:34.260 --> 00:06:37.200 Knowing this, as far as I'm concerned, 145 00:06:37.200 --> 00:06:38.553 and that's how I make it. 146 00:06:40.333 --> 00:06:43.920 I feel like I am alone a lot of times. 147 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.890 Even though there's people sitting next to me, 148 00:06:46.890 --> 00:06:49.410 I don't know whether there's a chair here, 149 00:06:49.410 --> 00:06:51.330 a stool here or whatever. 150 00:06:51.330 --> 00:06:54.630 So this vast darkness is just here. 151 00:06:54.630 --> 00:06:56.310 And you do feel like you're alone, 152 00:06:56.310 --> 00:06:59.310 even though a lot of times you in a room of people, 153 00:06:59.310 --> 00:07:01.140 you feel like you're alone. 154 00:07:01.140 --> 00:07:03.330 Then sometimes you have people. 155 00:07:03.330 --> 00:07:06.450 I have a good peer group and I got people all around me 156 00:07:06.450 --> 00:07:08.340 like all my ladies. 157 00:07:08.340 --> 00:07:10.290 We can laugh together. 158 00:07:10.290 --> 00:07:12.180 We come pray together. 159 00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:14.670 They give me their experiences 160 00:07:14.670 --> 00:07:16.983 and it feels like I am not alone. 161 00:07:18.030 --> 00:07:20.310 People have been my foundation 162 00:07:20.310 --> 00:07:22.470 when I didn't even know they were here for me. 163 00:07:22.470 --> 00:07:23.880 They were here. 164 00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:27.990 And just a telephone call helps you through the day. 165 00:07:27.990 --> 00:07:31.050 Just a kind word helps you through the day. 166 00:07:31.050 --> 00:07:33.390 Just knowing someone thinking about you 167 00:07:33.390 --> 00:07:34.703 helps you through the day. 168 00:07:34.703 --> 00:07:37.683 And that's how I deal with my blindness. 169 00:07:39.030 --> 00:07:42.060 Wow, she really said a lot, right? 170 00:07:42.060 --> 00:07:47.060 So just that no holds barred, "It's bad sometimes." 171 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:52.140 And yet I do feel like there was that hope, right? 172 00:07:52.140 --> 00:07:54.840 Just listening to Emma, I'm like, gosh, it's so powerful. 173 00:07:54.840 --> 00:07:57.600 I actually was on the phone with her when we recorded this 174 00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:59.730 and I just remember just sitting there 175 00:07:59.730 --> 00:08:02.130 just being amazed at her story. 176 00:08:02.130 --> 00:08:03.660 And she's such a good storyteller 177 00:08:03.660 --> 00:08:06.030 and the way that she just shares her life, 178 00:08:06.030 --> 00:08:07.455 she's so open and vulnerable. 179 00:08:07.455 --> 00:08:09.090 And I remember just sitting at her feet 180 00:08:09.090 --> 00:08:12.270 as she shared her story and it was just so cool to hear. 181 00:08:12.270 --> 00:08:15.240 Absolutely, I love how she takes us through 182 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:17.700 kind of the darkest parts of it, 183 00:08:17.700 --> 00:08:20.790 but also the joy that she has 184 00:08:20.790 --> 00:08:23.700 and who is helping her and how. 185 00:08:23.700 --> 00:08:26.430 So very powerful. 186 00:08:26.430 --> 00:08:30.960 So next up, we are going to hear from Albert. 187 00:08:30.960 --> 00:08:33.210 He found his own bit of salvation 188 00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:34.910 and something that helps him cope. 189 00:08:36.090 --> 00:08:38.700 My name is Albert Papazoni. 190 00:08:38.700 --> 00:08:43.700 I live in Houston, Texas, and I'm 63 years old. 191 00:08:44.700 --> 00:08:48.570 When I got into my early 50s, 192 00:08:48.570 --> 00:08:53.570 I started noticing my vision decreasing very rapidly. 193 00:08:54.330 --> 00:08:59.330 And what I found is that I had a genetic issue 194 00:08:59.550 --> 00:09:01.383 that skipped a generation. 195 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:06.510 So today I would say I have maybe 10% vision, 196 00:09:06.510 --> 00:09:11.510 depending on the lighting and stress level, of course. 197 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:15.570 You wouldn't believe it, but that does have a huge impact. 198 00:09:15.570 --> 00:09:18.393 Can't read hard copy paper any longer. 199 00:09:19.230 --> 00:09:24.230 And probably the biggest one is I have to plan my day 200 00:09:24.780 --> 00:09:26.823 a little more than the average person. 201 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:30.750 You know, in the past, it was jump in the car, 202 00:09:30.750 --> 00:09:33.090 run to the store, get a quart of milk. 203 00:09:33.090 --> 00:09:34.390 I can't do that as easily. 204 00:09:36.090 --> 00:09:38.070 I went to the Humane Society. 205 00:09:38.070 --> 00:09:41.670 I ended up getting two cats, so they wanna lay in my lap. 206 00:09:41.670 --> 00:09:44.610 The minute I come in the door, they follow me to my chair. 207 00:09:44.610 --> 00:09:48.090 And animals are so smart, but I sit in my chair 208 00:09:48.090 --> 00:09:51.240 and they both wanna pop up there and sit in my lap 209 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:54.120 and that's very comforting. 210 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:57.210 So I found a lot of comfort in my cats. 211 00:09:57.210 --> 00:09:58.890 And maybe they know I saved them. 212 00:09:58.890 --> 00:10:01.440 Maybe there's a little bit of that too, I don't know. 213 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:03.420 But they certainly helped me. 214 00:10:03.420 --> 00:10:04.740 That just makes me smile. 215 00:10:04.740 --> 00:10:09.000 Any stories about animals make me smile. 216 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:12.060 We recently lost our cat, unfortunately, 217 00:10:12.060 --> 00:10:15.600 but she definitely knew, and he's so right. 218 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:16.770 Animals are smart. 219 00:10:16.770 --> 00:10:20.220 They can figure out, "Oh, you can't see me, 220 00:10:20.220 --> 00:10:23.229 so maybe I shouldn't be under your feet quite as much." 221 00:10:23.229 --> 00:10:25.530 (Ricky and Marc laugh) 222 00:10:25.530 --> 00:10:26.363 You're so right, Ricky. 223 00:10:26.363 --> 00:10:28.920 I was just smiling listening to Albert that whole time 224 00:10:28.920 --> 00:10:30.150 talking about his comfort cats. 225 00:10:30.150 --> 00:10:31.380 It's just so nice. 226 00:10:31.380 --> 00:10:33.090 Yes, absolutely. 227 00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:35.137 And if you're listening and you're thinking, 228 00:10:35.137 --> 00:10:38.130 "I'm not sure if I can care for my pets. 229 00:10:38.130 --> 00:10:40.260 Are there different things that I need to think about?" 230 00:10:40.260 --> 00:10:44.070 You know, it's important to know there are ways to do that. 231 00:10:44.070 --> 00:10:47.670 In fact, Hadley has a couple of workshops on those things 232 00:10:47.670 --> 00:10:51.180 to keep in mind, like, measuring the medication 233 00:10:51.180 --> 00:10:53.670 and different things that you might need 234 00:10:53.670 --> 00:10:57.120 to know to care for your pets effectively 235 00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:00.720 and it's certainly possible and so very rewarding, right? 236 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:02.190 Yeah, yeah. 237 00:11:02.190 --> 00:11:06.513 So next up, we are going to hear from Jayne. 238 00:11:07.980 --> 00:11:10.713 My name is Jayne Surrena and I'm from Philadelphia. 239 00:11:11.820 --> 00:11:16.170 I went to school for painting 240 00:11:16.170 --> 00:11:19.770 and got my master's in art education. 241 00:11:19.770 --> 00:11:24.770 I had been painting and showing my art since I was 20 242 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:30.063 and working nonprofits and teaching. 243 00:11:31.170 --> 00:11:34.560 I have retinal dystrophy. 244 00:11:34.560 --> 00:11:36.900 I didn't realize I had an issue 245 00:11:36.900 --> 00:11:39.510 until I guess the beginning of the pandemic. 246 00:11:39.510 --> 00:11:41.700 I honestly thought everyone saw 247 00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:43.743 the same way I did my entire life. 248 00:11:44.970 --> 00:11:48.540 So I went to a different eye doctor. 249 00:11:48.540 --> 00:11:50.957 They're like, "There's nothing we can do. 250 00:11:50.957 --> 00:11:52.680 That's just normal. 251 00:11:52.680 --> 00:11:54.360 It usually happens when you're older. 252 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:55.910 We can't do anything about it." 253 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:00.690 I felt so in the dark about everything 254 00:12:00.690 --> 00:12:03.660 and just very isolated. 255 00:12:03.660 --> 00:12:07.470 I would go online and just try to look up the terms 256 00:12:07.470 --> 00:12:09.780 that they were using 'cause I still feel, I guess, 257 00:12:09.780 --> 00:12:11.283 very vulnerable about it. 258 00:12:12.420 --> 00:12:17.420 With vision loss, so often I spend so much of my day 259 00:12:19.050 --> 00:12:23.880 trying to force myself to see things I can't see, 260 00:12:23.880 --> 00:12:27.540 like trying to focus on something 261 00:12:27.540 --> 00:12:31.407 that's blurry or not there anymore. 262 00:12:31.407 --> 00:12:34.680 And I get anxiety and I stress out about it 263 00:12:34.680 --> 00:12:39.390 and I just shut down 'cause it's never gonna come back. 264 00:12:39.390 --> 00:12:41.040 It's never gonna come into focus. 265 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:47.120 But the one positive of everything is with my artwork, 266 00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:55.380 the fact that I can't see every imperfection 267 00:12:55.380 --> 00:12:57.720 and mistake in my artwork anymore. 268 00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:59.520 I have so much more freedom. 269 00:12:59.520 --> 00:13:04.350 And instead of spending like hours 270 00:13:04.350 --> 00:13:06.930 trying to make everything meticulous, 271 00:13:06.930 --> 00:13:11.930 I am going through pages and using colors for the first time 272 00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:19.100 and creating images that are just 273 00:13:19.590 --> 00:13:24.180 actually from like inside of me and like from emotion 274 00:13:24.180 --> 00:13:26.970 instead of trying to remember technical skills 275 00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:29.160 that I was taught in school years ago. 276 00:13:29.160 --> 00:13:34.140 Like I'm enjoying myself for the first time. 277 00:13:34.140 --> 00:13:36.330 And like I'm actually smile, 278 00:13:36.330 --> 00:13:39.420 I feel like myself smiling as I work. 279 00:13:39.420 --> 00:13:41.850 And like I step back, I'm like, yes. 280 00:13:41.850 --> 00:13:46.850 And it's there because I'm not focused on any details. 281 00:13:47.700 --> 00:13:52.273 It's just the overall piece that is, 282 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.450 I just feel like it's a part of me now. 283 00:13:57.450 --> 00:13:58.440 It's a part of me now. 284 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:01.440 That was actually the title of the episode 285 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.350 and I think that sums it up so well. 286 00:14:04.350 --> 00:14:06.870 Just going from, "Wait, what is this?" 287 00:14:06.870 --> 00:14:11.870 to figuring out a way to incorporate that in her life. 288 00:14:12.540 --> 00:14:15.510 Her story actually reminds me of, 289 00:14:15.510 --> 00:14:20.490 we had another artist with vision loss, Chloe Duplessis, 290 00:14:20.490 --> 00:14:22.710 who was on "Hadley Presents." 291 00:14:22.710 --> 00:14:24.690 And she said something very similar 292 00:14:24.690 --> 00:14:28.927 where she's talking about rather than saying, 293 00:14:28.927 --> 00:14:33.600 "I have to give up my art," she finds a new way to do it 294 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:37.500 and her art is actually better and different. 295 00:14:37.500 --> 00:14:40.261 And I appreciated her, just her honesty. 296 00:14:40.261 --> 00:14:42.095 I think she talked about how she, you know, 297 00:14:42.095 --> 00:14:44.730 is kind of forcing herself to see the things that she can't. 298 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:46.950 And I was thinking that I'd probably be doing 299 00:14:46.950 --> 00:14:47.940 the same kind of thing. 300 00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:49.185 Right, yeah. 301 00:14:49.185 --> 00:14:51.053 Having the anxiety and to find that outlet in her art. 302 00:14:51.053 --> 00:14:53.400 I think she said she's creating from emotion 303 00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:56.490 instead of technical skills now and smiling as she worked. 304 00:14:56.490 --> 00:14:57.660 That's so cool. 305 00:14:57.660 --> 00:14:58.800 I love it. 306 00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:02.010 So next up we're going to hear from Bruce, 307 00:15:02.010 --> 00:15:04.920 and Bruce is sharing something that, 308 00:15:04.920 --> 00:15:08.550 it's one of the top things that I think about 309 00:15:08.550 --> 00:15:11.730 that people who sort of reach a certain point 310 00:15:11.730 --> 00:15:15.540 face this struggle and everyone overcomes it 311 00:15:15.540 --> 00:15:18.210 in a slightly different way. 312 00:15:18.210 --> 00:15:20.013 But let's hear Bruce's story. 313 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:21.953 Hello. 314 00:15:21.953 --> 00:15:26.490 My name is Bruce Wyland and I live on Bainbridge Island, 315 00:15:26.490 --> 00:15:29.433 which is an island off of downtown Seattle. 316 00:15:30.390 --> 00:15:33.780 I have retinitis pigmentosa and I've watched my vision 317 00:15:33.780 --> 00:15:38.160 get narrower and narrower from the outside coming in. 318 00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:39.870 And I've adjusted to it along the way, 319 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:43.263 giving up various things, sports, driving, et cetera. 320 00:15:44.130 --> 00:15:46.380 But it wasn't until I hit my 60s 321 00:15:46.380 --> 00:15:48.720 that my vision deterioration finally reached 322 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:50.730 the center of my vision. 323 00:15:50.730 --> 00:15:53.940 And my tunnel vision became so narrow that 324 00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:57.240 I was literally tripping over things, 325 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:01.620 bumping into dogs and children, open doorways. 326 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:03.510 And as I walked around at my hometown, 327 00:16:03.510 --> 00:16:06.120 I found myself more and more embarrassed, 328 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.430 apologetic to people. 329 00:16:08.430 --> 00:16:12.330 People just didn't understand about my problem 330 00:16:12.330 --> 00:16:15.120 because I was keeping it a secret. 331 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.210 So the one thing I wanna recommend to people is 332 00:16:18.210 --> 00:16:21.780 when you're ready, get cane training 333 00:16:21.780 --> 00:16:24.720 and embrace the use of a cane. 334 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:28.410 I have to say I hesitated and resisted for a long, long time 335 00:16:28.410 --> 00:16:30.810 until my wife finally convinced me 336 00:16:30.810 --> 00:16:34.110 that I had to use the cane when I walked about 337 00:16:34.110 --> 00:16:38.760 both for safety and for maximizing social interactions. 338 00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:41.250 And when I started using the cane, first of all, 339 00:16:41.250 --> 00:16:44.280 I stopped tripping over things and running into things. 340 00:16:44.280 --> 00:16:47.910 And second of all, it was a way to gently announce to people 341 00:16:47.910 --> 00:16:49.890 that I had a visual problem. 342 00:16:49.890 --> 00:16:54.890 And suddenly people who were confused or angry were helpful. 343 00:16:55.170 --> 00:16:58.830 Rather than feeling embarrassed as I was afraid I might, 344 00:16:58.830 --> 00:17:02.340 I felt like I had suddenly been given a ticket 345 00:17:02.340 --> 00:17:04.680 to travel around without embarrassment, 346 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.730 without mishaps, both safer and happier. 347 00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:12.420 And the final thing I will say is I was a little afraid 348 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:15.480 of the cane as a negative symbol. 349 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:19.320 And I was worried that people might ridicule me 350 00:17:19.320 --> 00:17:21.750 or be less than supportive. 351 00:17:21.750 --> 00:17:23.280 And I will tell you, in the two years 352 00:17:23.280 --> 00:17:25.560 I've been using the cane, I have not had 353 00:17:25.560 --> 00:17:29.340 a single negative interaction with another person. 354 00:17:29.340 --> 00:17:34.170 People are kind, they're understanding, they are welcoming, 355 00:17:34.170 --> 00:17:37.230 and it's been a real plus for me. 356 00:17:37.230 --> 00:17:40.080 So that's my suggestion. 357 00:17:40.080 --> 00:17:43.110 When the time is right, embrace the cane. 358 00:17:43.110 --> 00:17:45.330 Thanks for listening, bye-bye. 359 00:17:45.330 --> 00:17:46.200 That's so awesome. 360 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.380 He quickly encapsulated this whole journey. 361 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:53.580 Does this come up a lot, Marc, in people that you talk with? 362 00:17:53.580 --> 00:17:55.530 Oh yes, absolutely, Ricky. 363 00:17:55.530 --> 00:17:56.700 I mean, you can imagine. 364 00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.533 And I love what he says, 365 00:17:57.533 --> 00:17:58.787 "When the time is right, embrace the cane." 366 00:17:58.787 --> 00:18:00.780 'Cause I think, you know, what you shared earlier, 367 00:18:00.780 --> 00:18:02.610 it's a different journey for everybody, right? 368 00:18:02.610 --> 00:18:03.600 Exactly. 369 00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:05.010 And I imagine it's different for everybody 370 00:18:05.010 --> 00:18:07.057 and it's sometimes not an easy decision to come to, 371 00:18:07.057 --> 00:18:08.910 you know, when it's the right time 372 00:18:08.910 --> 00:18:10.320 to explore using the cane. 373 00:18:10.320 --> 00:18:13.380 But I love a ticket to travel around without embarrassment. 374 00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:14.490 What a cool quote. 375 00:18:14.490 --> 00:18:16.110 Yes, that was the best. 376 00:18:16.110 --> 00:18:18.727 And just that moment of going, 377 00:18:18.727 --> 00:18:21.540 "You know, I thought it was gonna be really negative. 378 00:18:21.540 --> 00:18:25.050 And it turns out that people were actually nice about it." 379 00:18:25.050 --> 00:18:26.580 There's another episode, you probably remember it, 380 00:18:26.580 --> 00:18:28.559 Angela, where she talks about- Yeah, Angela Delgado. 381 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:30.450 her little secret, yep, yeah. 382 00:18:30.450 --> 00:18:32.910 And it reminded me quite a bit of Bruce's story as well. 383 00:18:32.910 --> 00:18:35.310 And I think she had a similar experience. 384 00:18:35.310 --> 00:18:37.800 I think she thought she would get different reactions 385 00:18:37.800 --> 00:18:39.060 from her family and from others 386 00:18:39.060 --> 00:18:41.790 and it was a real positive experience for her too. 387 00:18:41.790 --> 00:18:44.490 Yeah, that's amazing. (laughs) 388 00:18:44.490 --> 00:18:47.550 I just love sharing these different stories 389 00:18:47.550 --> 00:18:50.400 and that's exactly what "Insights & Sound Bites" is, 390 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.690 is just these little clips of people figuring out 391 00:18:54.690 --> 00:18:59.690 what it was that finally helped them to turn a corner. 392 00:19:00.390 --> 00:19:01.710 We have one last clip here, 393 00:19:01.710 --> 00:19:05.910 and I feel like it encapsulates one thing 394 00:19:05.910 --> 00:19:08.730 that we've sort of been saying all along, 395 00:19:08.730 --> 00:19:11.700 and in fact it is the title of the episode. 396 00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:13.643 So we're going to hear from Ashia. 397 00:19:15.108 --> 00:19:17.463 I'm Ashia James, Georgia. 398 00:19:18.510 --> 00:19:22.680 I was diagnosed with a rare neurological disorder 399 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:24.843 called benign essential blepharospasm. 400 00:19:25.898 --> 00:19:30.030 And it's where I have uncontrollable eye spasms 401 00:19:30.030 --> 00:19:33.030 and I have eye closures, and I don't know 402 00:19:33.030 --> 00:19:34.260 how long they'll close. 403 00:19:34.260 --> 00:19:37.110 Sometimes they close for a few seconds, 404 00:19:37.110 --> 00:19:39.960 a few minutes or hours at a time, 405 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.990 like maybe about 10 hours at a time. 406 00:19:42.990 --> 00:19:47.730 I found out about this, I think it was in September 2022, 407 00:19:49.410 --> 00:19:52.440 I started panicking because I saw that 408 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.690 there was no cure for this. 409 00:19:54.690 --> 00:19:59.250 And I was hoping and praying that this was not true. 410 00:19:59.250 --> 00:20:01.590 I was afraid to go outside. 411 00:20:01.590 --> 00:20:05.160 Even walking around my house would be a challenge 412 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:07.500 because you think you really know your house 413 00:20:07.500 --> 00:20:11.040 until you lose your vision completely. 414 00:20:11.040 --> 00:20:14.400 You struggle to figure out where you are. 415 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.640 So I came across American Print House 416 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.280 and I reached out to them. 417 00:20:20.280 --> 00:20:22.530 She recommended Hadley. 418 00:20:22.530 --> 00:20:26.310 And really Hadley changed my life 419 00:20:26.310 --> 00:20:30.540 because I got to hear soundbites of people 420 00:20:30.540 --> 00:20:33.120 dealing with issues just like me. 421 00:20:33.120 --> 00:20:36.360 Even though our conditions are different, 422 00:20:36.360 --> 00:20:39.510 we seem to be going through the same thing, 423 00:20:39.510 --> 00:20:42.150 dealing with it, dealing with grief, 424 00:20:42.150 --> 00:20:44.850 the stages of grief and acceptance that, 425 00:20:44.850 --> 00:20:47.460 you know, finding our way out of it. 426 00:20:47.460 --> 00:20:50.250 What gets me through the difficult moments 427 00:20:50.250 --> 00:20:54.540 is knowing that there's a community out there 428 00:20:54.540 --> 00:20:57.543 that is experiencing similar things. 429 00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:00.750 The first feeling for me was feeling 430 00:21:00.750 --> 00:21:03.210 that I'm in it by myself. 431 00:21:03.210 --> 00:21:04.980 You know, there's no one around to help me. 432 00:21:04.980 --> 00:21:06.660 They don't know what I'm going through. 433 00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:09.900 But with Hadley, that community, 434 00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:12.960 we all share similar experiences. 435 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:17.430 Even though they may not be exactly the same, we're similar. 436 00:21:17.430 --> 00:21:22.430 And that gives me hope, faith, and confidence. 437 00:21:24.150 --> 00:21:25.470 It's said so many times, 438 00:21:25.470 --> 00:21:28.113 and I hate it to be a cliche, but it's true. 439 00:21:29.280 --> 00:21:31.110 Finding out that you're not alone 440 00:21:31.110 --> 00:21:33.753 makes the biggest difference in the world. 441 00:21:34.830 --> 00:21:36.150 As I was listening to this, I'm just so grateful 442 00:21:36.150 --> 00:21:37.807 that she found us here at Hadley 443 00:21:37.807 --> 00:21:41.220 and she's getting connected with others who understand, 444 00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:43.260 you know, her story and her challenges. 445 00:21:43.260 --> 00:21:46.470 Absolutely, because it is so powerful 446 00:21:46.470 --> 00:21:49.470 going through something by yourself, 447 00:21:49.470 --> 00:21:51.570 you think, "This is all on me. 448 00:21:51.570 --> 00:21:53.580 I have to figure it out by myself. 449 00:21:53.580 --> 00:21:55.980 My friends don't understand, my family." 450 00:21:55.980 --> 00:21:58.680 I think she said, "I feel like I'm in it by myself." 451 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.340 Yeah, and then to find a group of people 452 00:22:02.340 --> 00:22:04.920 that are going through the same thing you are. 453 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.800 And that actually brings up the question then. 454 00:22:07.800 --> 00:22:09.510 So if people are listening 455 00:22:09.510 --> 00:22:12.330 and "Insights & Sound Bites" is new to you, 456 00:22:12.330 --> 00:22:14.610 Hadley's peer-to-peer program is new to you, 457 00:22:14.610 --> 00:22:16.080 this is the first time you're hearing 458 00:22:16.080 --> 00:22:19.140 about this sort of stuff, we'll have this information 459 00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:21.000 in our show notes, but Marc, 460 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:23.190 I'm wondering if you could just give us 461 00:22:23.190 --> 00:22:27.060 a quick rundown for, number one, how does it work? 462 00:22:27.060 --> 00:22:29.490 How do you submit a soundbite 463 00:22:29.490 --> 00:22:32.220 and do you have to get it perfect the first time around? 464 00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:33.700 Like, take us through that. 465 00:22:33.700 --> 00:22:36.000 Yeah, so Ricky, there's lots of ways that 466 00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:37.920 you can share your story with others 467 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:39.450 through our "Insights & Sound Bites." 468 00:22:39.450 --> 00:22:41.460 One of the easiest ways is to call our 800 number 469 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:44.790 at 1-800-323-4238, 470 00:22:44.790 --> 00:22:47.040 and the folks at our support center can get your story 471 00:22:47.040 --> 00:22:49.200 and get it out there for folks to listen to. 472 00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:51.540 You can also record directly from our website. 473 00:22:51.540 --> 00:22:53.940 There's a record button right on our site 474 00:22:53.940 --> 00:22:56.640 that you can select and just start recording 475 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.020 and that'll be saved. 476 00:22:58.020 --> 00:23:01.200 And we'll have that available and we can get it that way. 477 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:02.033 You can also call. 478 00:23:02.033 --> 00:23:05.370 There's an "Insights & Sound Bites" podcast voicemail line, 479 00:23:05.370 --> 00:23:09.880 and that number is 847-512-4867. 480 00:23:09.880 --> 00:23:12.090 So if you call that number, you can just leave a message 481 00:23:12.090 --> 00:23:16.080 on our voicemail and we can get your story that way too. 482 00:23:16.080 --> 00:23:19.440 Awesome, and I know you all make it so friendly. 483 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:23.100 It's not a nerve-wracking process. 484 00:23:23.100 --> 00:23:26.250 If you have a story and you're not quite sure 485 00:23:26.250 --> 00:23:29.670 how to tell it, Marc and his team are really good 486 00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:31.680 at kind of teasing that out of you 487 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:34.170 and getting you to open up a bit 488 00:23:34.170 --> 00:23:38.340 and share what you need to in the way that you want 489 00:23:38.340 --> 00:23:40.920 as opposed to when I leave a voicemail, 490 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:43.320 I'm kind of stuttering and wishing 491 00:23:43.320 --> 00:23:44.940 I could do it all over again. 492 00:23:44.940 --> 00:23:47.940 So if that's a concern, don't worry about that. 493 00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:49.890 And if you're wondering about how to listen 494 00:23:49.890 --> 00:23:53.100 to "Insights & Sound Bites," you can of course 495 00:23:53.100 --> 00:23:56.970 find it on our website, but it's also available 496 00:23:56.970 --> 00:24:00.390 on places like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 497 00:24:00.390 --> 00:24:03.600 really wherever you're getting "Hadley Presents," 498 00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:04.987 you're also going to find 499 00:24:04.987 --> 00:24:07.320 "Insights & Sound Bites" there as well. 500 00:24:07.320 --> 00:24:10.920 We do have a phone number if you would like to listen 501 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:13.200 by phone if that's just a bit easier. 502 00:24:13.200 --> 00:24:16.803 That's 847-558-1317. 503 00:24:19.230 --> 00:24:21.510 So lots of ways to listen. 504 00:24:21.510 --> 00:24:23.250 And honestly, Ricky, it's one of my favorite parts 505 00:24:23.250 --> 00:24:25.770 of my job is, you know, hearing people's stories 506 00:24:25.770 --> 00:24:28.170 and sometimes I'll spend half an hour, 507 00:24:28.170 --> 00:24:29.850 45 minutes on the phone with somebody 508 00:24:29.850 --> 00:24:31.590 and just to be able to talk and, you know, 509 00:24:31.590 --> 00:24:33.600 we'll pull out some of our little clips 510 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:34.800 from our conversations. 511 00:24:34.800 --> 00:24:37.350 So I really enjoy being able just to sit 512 00:24:37.350 --> 00:24:39.600 and chat with people and hear their stories. 513 00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:40.433 That's great. 514 00:24:40.433 --> 00:24:43.170 And how about for that one-on-one connection? 515 00:24:43.170 --> 00:24:47.340 How do people get involved with the peer-to-peer program? 516 00:24:47.340 --> 00:24:48.540 Yeah, it's a program. 517 00:24:48.540 --> 00:24:51.390 I mean, so encouraging to hear about some of the connections 518 00:24:51.390 --> 00:24:52.860 that folks are making with one another 519 00:24:52.860 --> 00:24:54.930 and the support that they're being able to offer each other. 520 00:24:54.930 --> 00:24:56.670 And if you ever feel like you, you know, 521 00:24:56.670 --> 00:24:59.190 would benefit from connecting with somebody else 522 00:24:59.190 --> 00:25:01.080 who is going through something similar, 523 00:25:01.080 --> 00:25:03.450 we're happy to see if we can figure that out with you. 524 00:25:03.450 --> 00:25:06.494 Again, the easiest thing to do is just call our 800 number. 525 00:25:06.494 --> 00:25:09.840 Again, it's 1-800-323-4238. 526 00:25:09.840 --> 00:25:11.880 The folks at our support center, you know, 527 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:13.200 they'll want to get to know you a little bit 528 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.030 and so they'll just ask you a few questions, 529 00:25:15.030 --> 00:25:16.800 maybe about your eye condition 530 00:25:16.800 --> 00:25:18.780 and maybe hobbies, interests, things like that. 531 00:25:18.780 --> 00:25:21.030 And then we'll do our best to try and connect you 532 00:25:21.030 --> 00:25:23.250 with somebody who has some similarities 533 00:25:23.250 --> 00:25:25.470 and then we'll introduce you to one another. 534 00:25:25.470 --> 00:25:26.303 Awesome. 535 00:25:26.303 --> 00:25:27.240 Well, thanks, Marc. 536 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:29.340 It's been a lot of fun just listening 537 00:25:29.340 --> 00:25:33.450 to a few stories together and I always feel 538 00:25:33.450 --> 00:25:36.750 at the end of each one just how powerful it is. 539 00:25:36.750 --> 00:25:40.290 It's sort of like a rollercoaster where it goes down, 540 00:25:40.290 --> 00:25:42.510 oh, it's going back up. 541 00:25:42.510 --> 00:25:44.400 Yes, that's exactly right. (laughs) 542 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:45.570 No, thanks for inviting me, Ricky. 543 00:25:45.570 --> 00:25:46.500 I do appreciate it. 544 00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:48.690 I so enjoy listening to these as well. 545 00:25:48.690 --> 00:25:49.523 It's just, it reminds me that 546 00:25:49.523 --> 00:25:51.330 there is a lot of hope out there, right? 547 00:25:51.330 --> 00:25:53.430 And there are others who understand 548 00:25:53.430 --> 00:25:55.710 and are willing to be there to help. 549 00:25:55.710 --> 00:25:57.750 Thanks so much, Marc, for stopping by. 550 00:25:57.750 --> 00:26:00.210 And of course, thank you all for listening. 551 00:26:00.210 --> 00:26:03.120 We're just about done, but I couldn't resist. 552 00:26:03.120 --> 00:26:07.860 We put together one last clip of clips, if you will, 553 00:26:07.860 --> 00:26:11.370 and it's just a couple of people expressing 554 00:26:11.370 --> 00:26:13.687 really how they felt when they discovered 555 00:26:13.687 --> 00:26:14.940 "Insights and Sound Bites" 556 00:26:14.940 --> 00:26:17.730 or decided to share their own story. 557 00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:21.360 So if you're still on the fence, I think this last set 558 00:26:21.360 --> 00:26:24.330 of clips is going to really encourage you 559 00:26:24.330 --> 00:26:27.663 to check out the podcast and hopefully share your own story. 560 00:26:29.130 --> 00:26:31.087 One of the things was, I was listening to 561 00:26:31.087 --> 00:26:34.230 "Insights and Sound Bites" where the lady, 562 00:26:34.230 --> 00:26:36.660 she just turned everything around 563 00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:39.240 and that's what I am doing. 564 00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:41.100 I think it's a path. 565 00:26:41.100 --> 00:26:42.970 I believe it's a path we go on 566 00:26:43.890 --> 00:26:47.100 but it's in a different direction depending on 567 00:26:47.100 --> 00:26:50.973 what you're looking for, for everyone with vision loss. 568 00:26:51.810 --> 00:26:54.840 And I have reached out and got help, 569 00:26:54.840 --> 00:26:56.877 but I love the "Insights and Sound Bites" 570 00:26:56.877 --> 00:26:59.673 and I listen to as many of them as I can. 571 00:27:01.080 --> 00:27:03.990 Hadley has really, really helped me 572 00:27:03.990 --> 00:27:07.770 kind of feel like I have a community of some sort 573 00:27:07.770 --> 00:27:10.830 where I just listen to all of everybody's stories 574 00:27:10.830 --> 00:27:15.120 and this is absolutely wonderful. 575 00:27:15.120 --> 00:27:17.460 And I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart 576 00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:20.460 for even deciding to do this 577 00:27:20.460 --> 00:27:24.603 because this is something that I thoroughly enjoy. 578 00:27:25.680 --> 00:27:28.620 This year, I've given up so much. 579 00:27:28.620 --> 00:27:32.220 Driving the car, sold the car, gave up my business, 580 00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:37.220 my work of 50 years, and everything changed. 581 00:27:37.650 --> 00:27:41.310 If I could help one person with my story, 582 00:27:41.310 --> 00:27:44.340 I've achieved a great deal moving on 583 00:27:44.340 --> 00:27:48.150 to the next phase of my life with low vision. 584 00:27:48.150 --> 00:27:52.530 It just made me happy because I knew 585 00:27:52.530 --> 00:27:53.850 that I could help somebody. 586 00:27:53.850 --> 00:27:57.870 And if I helped one person through Hadley, 587 00:27:57.870 --> 00:27:59.493 I achieved a great deal. 588 00:28:01.375 --> 00:28:02.850 (cheerful music) 589 00:28:02.850 --> 00:28:04.560 Got something to say? 590 00:28:04.560 --> 00:28:08.010 Share your thoughts about this episode of "Hadley Presents," 591 00:28:08.010 --> 00:28:10.590 or make suggestions for future episodes. 592 00:28:10.590 --> 00:28:12.300 We'd love to hear from you. 593 00:28:12.300 --> 00:28:17.280 Send us an email at podcast@hadleyhelps.org. 594 00:28:17.280 --> 00:28:22.280 That's P-O-D-C-A-S-T@hadleyhelps.O-R-G. 595 00:28:23.790 --> 00:28:28.530 Or leave us a message at 847-784-2870. 596 00:28:30.750 --> 00:28:31.833 Thanks for listening.