-: When figuring out how to navigate
after vision loss, a guide dog is one option to consider.
But what should you know before making that choice?
In this episode guide dog handlers Judy Davis
and Nancy Kranjack join us
to share their experiences in working with a guide dog.
I'm Ricky Enger and this is Hadley Presents.
Welcome to the show. Nancy and Judy,
-: Great to be here.
-: Yes, indeed. It is wonderful to have you both.
Judy, you've been on a couple of times,
and Nancy, this is your first time
and as I say, I am delighted to have you both here.
What better thing
to do than talk about furry,
wonderful companions, which is what we're going to,
to do today.
And these are companions that also have a job,
which is actually pretty cool.
So I am so looking forward
to just learning a bit more about your journeys
as guide dog handlers.
And I know that when people start
to think about this process or friends
and family are saying, Hey, why don't you have a dog yet?
Because that always comes up.
There are so many questions that people have.
So I think this is a great way to get some of those answered
and just to kind of hear what it's like from people
who actually work with dogs.
So before we jump in to the questions
that I have, why don't we just start
with getting some quick introductions.
So tell us a bit about you
and of course we want to know
what dog you are currently working with.
So Judy, we'll start with you.
-: My name is Judy Davis. I live in Western North Carolina.
My background's actually in library science,
but a lot of my life has been spent running support groups,
working for state agencies for the blind.
I have very little vision remaining as far as guide dogs go,
I'm on my third guide dog, his name is Orville.
I got a medical school up in New York and he's a black lab
and I just celebrated my fourth year with him.
So we've been a good team for four years. I love it.
-: Nancy, how about you? Tell us a bit about you.
-: Hi, my name is Nancy Kranjack.
I live in New Jersey with my husband Mario
and my guide dog Vince.
Vince is two years old
and we've been together since September.
And Vince is my first guide dog. He's adorable.
He is a black lab
with a golden retriever mix.
He's got a very friendly disposition.
He loves people, he's very social
and he's really great at doing his job.
We get around quite a bit together
and we're embarking on a new journey together.
I should say. As far as my vision loss, I was diagnosed
with RP when I was a teenager
and went through school, went through college, graduated,
embarked on a wonderful career in banking in New York City
and then raised my family in New Jersey.
Have three children and now a grandson.
So I am enjoying my life with Vince
because he's my new buddy.
I used to use a cane mainly I would go around
with my children or with a sighted guide
and once everybody was out
of the house I felt a little lonely
and going around with a cane was not
so natural for me.
I do enjoy going out for exercise
and walking long walks, enjoying nature
and meeting other people
and walking with a cane was difficult for me.
It didn't come naturally at all.
That's when I started considering a guide dog.
-: So when you were working with the cane,
for some people they feel like it's
a natural thing for them.
Some people are a bit resistant to it
and then get accustomed to it
and for some people you make the decision to do it,
but it, it doesn't feel right for whatever reason.
So is that kind of what led you
to think maybe a dog is better, maybe a dog is different?
What played into that decision
to look into getting your guide dog?
-: Well, I noticed that with the cane I can navigate,
I can learn streets
and get to places slowly.
I wasn't so great at it, but it was work, it wasn't fun.
I wasn't enjoying the walk, I wasn't enjoying the process.
So I stopped doing it as much.
I became very reticent about going out on walks
and I said, well this is a time to get a new companion.
For me, going out with a dog, walking out
with Vince is like,
like a teenager getting a driver's license all of a sudden.
That's the way I could actually describe it.
All of a sudden I have all this freedom to just go out
and explore and have fun and enjoy the process.
For me it's liberating.
-: Gosh, I just love to, to hear that,
to go from not enjoying walking at all
and feeling like you're sort of stuck
to now you have this freedom.
Judy, I know it's been a little longer for you
because you're on your third dog,
but if you can think back
to when you were considering getting your first one,
what played into that decision for you?
What wasn't working about your current situation
that you're like, you know,
maybe it's time to do something different?
-: Well, with me, you know,
I had a longer time using my cane.
As a lot of people can imagine,
having a guide dog is another responsibility.
And for me, having small children
and then adding a guide dog into the mix was just more than
I can imagine taking on.
And plus, I was fairly new to vision loss.
I mean, I'd had RP for years,
but I just crossed over to
where I couldn't navigate easily on my own.
So when we moved to Pennsylvania, I realized
that I was gonna have to do something
or else I was only gonna be able to walk up
and down my quiet little street.
So I, I learned to use my cane and my daughters
and I walked all over State College, Pennsylvania
and it was lovely.
And as time progressed it's like, well, you know, I,
I'm afraid, I trust my vision more than I would trust my
dog, which is not a good way to work with a guy dog.
So that was one reason I delayed
and at another point it's like, you know,
I'm not really walking enough to to to warrant a guy dog,
you know, because you have to, you know,
be out and about a lot.
And then, gosh,
I think 15 years ago I really got into walking a lot.
It was good for my mental health
and my vision had changed more
and it's like, oh it is, it is just time to get a dog.
Having a dog is, it's like Nancy was saying, it's just
so much a better sense of independence, freedom, fastness,
you know, able to walk more quickly
with a dog versus walking with a cane.
-: So when people start to think about this process
or even certainly the general public well-meaning
as they may be asking, you know, why don't you have a dog?
When are you gonna get a dog?
Or maybe you are thinking about that.
There are often some misconceptions
that come along for the ride.
The one I get a lot
as a misconception is that
you don't really need to learn
to travel in any other way before getting a dog.
So in other words, you don't need
to think about those basic orientation
and mobility skills, whether that's learning a cane,
learning to pay attention to some cues in your environment
to understand where you are, you know,
the dog's gonna take care of that.
I think that's one misconception that
I hear a lot.
So what about for each of you?
Were there misconceptions that either you had
or maybe your friends
and family had about what it would be like to have a dog
or what they can or can't do, that kind of thing?
So Nancy, we'll start with you.
-: So I'm the first guide dog owner here in my town.
So there's no one else to really compare me to
or ask questions.
It was sort of an information abyss.
I didn't know anything about guide dogs.
So I started reading books about them
and people sharing their journeys
and their adventures with about their guide dogs.
And that was, that was educational.
I thought that helped out a lot as far as dealing
with my family.
I kept on telling them, no, this is a service dog.
It's not gonna be your pet.
You're not gonna be playing with my dog. This is my dog.
So they were kind of resentful.
They were like, wait a minute, we want a pet,
we're gonna have our own dog.
And that is actually different than what I thought.
Yes, Vince is my guide dog
and once you put a harness on Vince, he's working
and no one else bothers him.
He's concentrated on me.
But as far as when that harness comes off
and he's only on leash
or he's free to roam around, he's as cuddly
and playful with my grandson at 18 months
as he is with everyone else.
So he's wonderful.
As far as what we all thought,
how does the guide dog actually function?
What, what can we expect of him?
I, I tell everyone I'm the GPS
and the guide dog actually keeps me safe
and keeps me going.
We actually learn to listen for cues.
And so I do use all my mobility skills,
learning to listen for traffic patterns,
for voices, for cues as to
what is close to me in order
to guide my
direction for the dog.
The dog keeps me safe,
keeps me away from trouble.
We came back in late September to my hometown
and we have no sidewalks.
We have to walk the street close to the curb.
And as you would imagine in rural New Jersey,
we have many trees
and there were big piles of leaves everywhere.
So Vince would guide me around the piles of leaves
and then we would get back to the curb
and proceed in our journey.
He also guides me around parked cars.
Like I said, we have no sidewalks so we go
around parked cars
and the fun thing is that if there's a car
that's gonna cut us off, he stops in his track.
I was recounting this one, one story before Vince
and I went for a long walk
and it took a little longer than I thought
and my friend was waiting for us in our drive-by.
I turned onto the street
and there was construction going on in a house
and it's fall.
There are landscapers blowing leaves.
It's really a cacophony sounds everywhere.
We made that turn into the street
and I could tell that there was a truck idling in front
of me and I kept telling Vince, hop up, which means go.
He would move. So then I called my friend who was waiting.
So eventually she came down to meet us at the end
of the block and she said he was right for not moving.
There are two trucks in front of you, landscapers are all
around and two trucks on the other side of the street
with traffic going on.
No wonder he wasn't progressing and going into danger.
I think it's called intelligent disobedience
where the dog instinctively knows that it's dangerous.
So let's put the brakes on until it's safe for you to move.
I wouldn't have done that with a cane.
I wouldn't have known, I would've tried to get
around the obstacle, which is, you know, in front of me
and perhaps put myself in harm's way
because I wouldn't be able
to discern all those different trucks and, and
and people going to and fro in front of me.
So that was, that was a lifesaver actually.
That's what I rely on Vince for.
-: Yeah. And I do really, first of all,
I really love that story.
It's such a good illustration of
how a dog works.
You are kind of the brains of the operation,
but sometimes the dog knows something that you don't
and this is the way that they communicate that.
Yeah. I'm gonna stop because it's dangerous
and ev eventually we'll figure out how
to get out of this mess.
But for the moment you said to go,
and I'm gonna say no, not a good idea.
Judy, do you remember what kinds
of misconceptions you had
or your family had about what it was gonna be like
to have a dog or even maybe what the dog could
or couldn't do before you got yours?
-: This was a misconception that I had
and it was a really tough one to come face to face with.
My first guy dog was named Mandrake
and he was a lovely yellow lab
and we worked so hard at guiding eyes and just did so well.
And then I brought him home
and initially it seemed to be working
and then he just seemed to be not as engaged.
And so, you know, I talked to the school, they were
so very supportive, they,
they said let's do some medical tests.
And they came and got him and took him back to the school
and they did medical tests
and I thought, you know, everything was good
and they brought him back
and the first walk I did with my trainer, he did okay
but not great.
And then the next walk we took, you know, later
that afternoon he just, he wasn't engaged at all.
So not all Guy Dog P Matches works
and it was especially tough since it was my first one.
And schools, all schools try so hard
to find the right dog for you.
You know, they look at how fast you walk, where you walk,
what kind of pull you need on the harness.
But his heart was just not ready to be a guide dog.
And Prince, my second guide dog worked really well
and I worked with him for seven years,
but eventually he let me know that
I don't like walking on this sidewalk next
to this busy street anymore.
So you know, that's another kind of unknown thing is
how long, once you have a guide dog,
that dog will work with you.
So you just have to be prepared for what comes.
And that was a hard lesson.
-: Yeah, no kidding.
And you don't think about that with a cane, you know,
you imagine it's going to work forever
unless like the elastic snaps or something.
And so you don't know
how long your guide dog will say, I love this.
Okay, not anymore.
Or as you had your first pairing,
that didn't work out quite so well.
I too had a similar situation.
I didn't come home with that initial dog.
We did manage to figure it out while at the school.
But I think it's a good thing for people to know
that if you're going into this
and things are not working,
sometimes they are fixable
and sometimes they're just not for a variety of reasons.
-: Yeah. And plus I think a lot of, you know, books
that people write about guide dogs,
they're talking about this wonderful, wonderful experience
and that very many people have had failed pairings.
And the nice thing for Mandrake is at
that time my school had a healing autism program.
So he was matched
after some additional training to be a companion for,
I think it was a 7-year-old boy with autism.
And so Mandrake had a happy story at the end.
I had a happy story, I got prints, so
it was all meant to be.
But yes, you know, like I said, I just,
I had no idea that could happen.
So people need to be aware
and like you said Ricky, it's, it's good to know
that in advance so that the sooner you all recognize, hey,
there might be an issue here, you can try to fix it
and men maybe just can't
-: For both of you, a theme that kind
of keeps coming up is freedom.
So when you travel with a dog,
it gives you this sense of freedom
that you just don't have with any other form of travel.
There's the ability to not have to find
that obstacle in order to figure out what to do about it
and how to get around it.
So I think that's one thing that a dog offers you.
Is there anything else that you feel like a dog gives you
that really nothing else could
or some possibility that it opened up
that you didn't imagine before?
Now Nancy, we'll start with you.
-: I really like the fact that when I walk with Vince,
people understand that I have a vision problem.
People understand, oh, it's a seeing eye dog,
let's not cross the street
because here's a blind lady coming with a cane
and let's keep away from her.
It's a guide dog and many times people will say hello
and be respectful and say Hi, I, I see you're working.
Hello Vince, hello Nancy.
And we keep on going and that's nice.
They do identify me as a person with sight problems.
To me that's liberating
because I don't wear dark glasses.
I look like every other person.
I was usually walking with a sighted guide,
so no one ever suspected that I had vision problems.
And now with Vince, I feel like a new life started
and people are more understanding, oh,
Nancy does have a vision problem.
They're more compassionate in a way,
but have embraced this new life of not seeing,
but being able to be part of life with a guide dog.
I don't know how you feel about it, Judy,
but I feel like it, it, it helps me integrate
with people a little bit more,
-: Bit of an icebreaker maybe,
and sort of answers a lot of questions
that people maybe wouldn't have asked. Right.
-: Can she see, can she not see me?
And it actually does explain a lot of things
because when you meet someone two years ago,
your vision might have changed now two years down the road
and they don't understand that.
They don't understand that.
But you were able to see
before, you can't see now things have
changed, they're different.
-: And Judy, what about for you?
What does a dog give to you
that you just didn't have before?
-: Yeah, I, I agree with both of you.
It's an icebreaker,
it's a conversation starter if you work with the dog.
'cause oftentimes if somebody sees somebody
with a white cane, I, I think, I don't know,
but I think that they don't know how
to start a conversation with you.
But if they see a dog that's something, oh
that's a beautiful dog, you know, and,
and that can just go on from there.
And I live alone.
I live in an area where one street I walk on,
there are no sidewalks
and then I can get up to one street
that does have a sidewalk.
And so having a dog that's comfortable in,
in both work environments is,
and also, you know, back to that conversation starter,
since I live alone, connecting with my neighbors is a joy
and also very helpful.
I know one time when I was walking
with my cane on this busier street on the sidewalk,
I cannot tell you how many pedestrians
and even some drivers stopped to say,
what's happened to your dog?
Is your dog okay?
And it was just amazing to know
how many people saw me as a person that they know
and that just met so much.
And then one time when I was walking with Orville,
and I know you both can sympathize with this,
is there was a tree that kind of grown over the sidewalk
and it just was right at my face level, which is tricky
for guide dogs to handle.
And so I brought my tremors, I got Orville in it down,
I started just try to start clipping this tree back
and it's like, oh my gosh, there's thorns.
I didn't know it had thorns
and this is just not gonna be fun.
And all of a sudden this man of the blue came, he said,
would you like some help?
He's like, oh, that would be wonderful.
And we just chatted while he was trimming it back
and he could trim way back and he could do it faster.
So I thanked him profusely
and I did not realize he was in a car.
So he drove off and then like five minutes later he came
back and he gave me a card and he said, this is my wife's
and wife's phone numbers.
It's our address, it's our email.
If you ever need anything, you know, just let us know.
And you know, they have picked up che orders for me,
they've picked me up at the airport and,
and that's the kind of connection I have.
And I think part of it is the dog.
Yes, I have a good personality,
but I think the dog got it started.
That to me is just a really nice bonus 'cause people care.
It's just they don't know what to do
with people with disabilities.
So if they can find a neutral place to connect with you,
sometimes that makes it easier for them
to start building a relationship with you.
-: So here we are talking about these wonderful dogs
and how they can foster such connection.
And then of course my next question is,
I won't say it's a downer,
but it is kind of a okay, you know,
there's gotta be another side to this somewhere.
So I do have to ask, and Judy, I'll start with you
because you've had more experience, so you may have
accumulated more stories,
but whether it is issues
that you've had in your own dog partnerships
or just issues that people should think about when they're
going to get a dog, what are the cons, for lack
of a better term,
that people should think about when they're
making that decision?
-: One thing I tell people about is your knees,
dogs take up space.
So if you are riding in a car, we are trained
to have the dog at our feet in a,
and so that dog is at your feet, then you're trying
to shift your feet to keep your knees falling apart.
And it's the same on airplanes.
I mean airplanes have just gotten to be such a tighter fit.
And Orville is a 65 pound dog, so he is not a small dog.
And so, you know, if it's a very long flight,
that's something else I have to pay attention is to,
you know, how to move my feet.
But still there's that to keep in mind.
And you know, some people, if they have a family vehicle,
they do put their dog in the backseat
or in the, in the space behind the back seat.
And then the other thing I think
that some people don't take into account is the time it
takes to do what all the dog needs.
You know, taking them out, you know, in the rain,
in the cold, you know, for those bathroom breaks.
I do not have a fenced in backyard. So there's that.
And then there's also the grooming
and I, I choose to bathe my own dog so I don't, you know, I,
I think they feel more comfortable with me doing that.
So that's something I've taken on.
And then also there's just the brushing
because a lot of people don't realize that yes,
you are allowed to go into all these public places,
but part of that is your dog has
to be well groomed and behave.
And then also I go the extra mile
and then I brush my dog's teeth, you know,
it's only another, you know, five minutes or so every night.
But I feel like dental care for my dog is just as important
for dental care for myself.
So those are some things
to consider is just your personal space when you're
traveling and then the time that it takes to do what all
that dog needs to stay healthy and to look good.
-: Yeah. All great points. Nancy, what about you?
Any, any cons that you wanna throw into the mix
or just things that maybe aren't your favorite
or you hadn't considered?
-: Well I think all those points definitely have
to consider committing so much time and energy to the dog.
I've been with Vince traveling in Ubers on subways
on buses and they're amazing how they actually
can scoot under a seat and travel all over.
So that's exciting.
However, the thing that did hold me back at least
that was a little apprehensive about was the seeing.
I has a program
where the first time dog owners will go there for 24 days
and you live on campus
and you have very limited time away from the school
actually you don't have any time away from the school,
you have to stay there 24 days on premises.
And I was wondering how will I manage, I have
so many responsibilities at home,
how will I manage going away?
That was a little bit of a consideration for me
and also being away from my family
and everything that I knew.
This is a very new experience for me
and I didn't know what to expect.
That was really something I dreaded.
And I remember the first time,
the first day when my husband left me off at school,
I was just like, we were both kind of shaking.
He was very nervous leaving me alone
and I was very apprehensive as well
and we almost had tears in our eyes.
And then he left the door closed.
I was in my dorm room, it was a single room
with my own bathroom and the loud speakers came on
and they said, come on out to the lounge.
And I met 17 other students
and the instructors were amazing.
The staff was so supportive and energetic and friendly
and they said, well all you have
to do is think about yourself this time.
You don't have to take care of your family
or all your other obligations.
All you have to think about is yourself
and your new dog that will come in a day or two.
He said, really? What? What's their due?
He said, oh, you'll have plenty to do.
You don't even have to make your bed in the morning.
We'll take care of that
and we'll take care of all the bathrooms
and and things of that sort.
All you have to do is concentrate on yourself and the dog.
I'm not gonna say that it was easy
because getting up at five 30 in the morning
to get the dog out for first outing
and bathroom break is not the thing that I usually do.
So outside with 17 other students
and we're all trying to get the dog to go on the parking lot
and then we come back inside
and wait for the doorbell to ring so that we could feed
and water our dogs.
And then we're called down for the first time with our dogs.
We're leading for the first time be
before we actually harness them.
And we go to a cafeteria and,
and there's this beautiful dining hall
and everyone comes in
and we sit at our table, the dogs are under our seats
and they stay there and we're served beautiful meals
and then off we go off we go working our dogs all day long.
It was a wonderfully enriching
experience for me.
I learned so much at the Seeing eye.
It's hard to trust this animal for the first time
with your life kind of thing.
You're going through some busy streets on sidewalks
and he's guiding me around.
It was, it was, of course the instructors are there right
by our sides telling us what to do.
But it makes us feel better.
But you're still like on edge, you know, this journey.
It's really hard.
The instructors are amazing.
They all encourage, they all have so much patience
and they work as teams.
You are never alone.
There's always someone looking at what you're doing
and there might be a suggestion, let's try this thing
or let's try something else.
I thought that was really enriching and rewarding.
And to this day, I mean I've been out
of the program since last fall, 2025
to this day the students and I keep in touch.
We have Zoom calls together, we, we exchanged cell phones.
So we talk to each other.
We exchange ideas on navigating of what works well
or what doesn't work well.
I was having a bit
of problems correcting Vince when he would see other
dogs in the neighborhood.
He would stop
and just like, there's a doctor I wanna comply.
And I would try correcting him
and say, no you, you have to cup up and go on your way.
And of course that's a hard thing to correct.
And the instructors actually came out to me two
or three times to help me through this process.
They're very supportive, wonderful people
and they're still there.
I mean, if I have any troubles
or any questions, if I need any adjustments
to my, to the harness or the handle, I can just call them.
That's really great because I don't feel
alone in this journey.
It's not like they shipped me out with a dog
and now I have to figure things out by myself.
They're still there. They're wonderful resources.
-: That is so nice
because even when you do encounter a problem like a dog,
distractions is a big one.
A dog is going to be very well trained,
but it's also still a dog.
It's so nice to know those instructors are still there
to step in, offer support, encouragement,
and they've seen it all before and have some tricks.
So that's good.
Gosh, we have really covered a lot I feel like,
and so much of it is just listening to the two
of you kind of glow as you talk about just
how much your dogs have given you.
And I so love to hear that.
I think that if you are listening
and you're considering a dog, I'm hoping
that this has answered a lot of questions for you.
We do at Hadley, have a set
of short video workshops talking about the pros and cons
and kind of giving some ideas on what it might be like
to have a guide dog.
I know people often wonder, hey,
I have some vision still so I probably get one.
Right? And that is certainly not true.
So if you have questions,
and I imagine that you might we're here at Hadley
to talk those through with you
and I imagine a lot
of things you might have been wondering about have been
answered here as well.
As we wrap up, just wanna ask each of you,
we've covered a lot,
but is there anything else that you wanna say to someone
who is, maybe they had never thought about a guide dog
before listening to this, or maybe they were considering,
but they're still on the fence.
You know, it's not the right decision for everyone.
But anything that you would say to someone listening
that might help to make that decision one way
or the other that we didn't cover?
So Judy, we'll start with you.
-: Yes, guide doc Schools are amazing.
As Nancy said, they're very supportive.
You know, they do this all the time.
So you can trust going
to a school you'll be well taken care of.
But what I would also like to add is people need
to keep in mind there are at least I think 15 different
guide dog schools.
So some people need to examine the various schools to see
what they offer because some people will choose a school
because of it's a location or
because of the breeds of the dogs they use
or the length of the training they have.
Some people also look at, you know, what kind
of financial stipend there may be.
'cause that may be a concern.
Number one, most guides, all schools are free,
so we haven't mentioned that yet.
And also some schools will provide a financial stipend
usually to help with like the veterinarian bills,
which can be a little expensive.
So if you're worried that you cannot afford a guide dog,
do not rule it out that you cannot afford one
until you've done your research.
And if you even have dog allergies,
there is one guide Dog school, I think it's Guide Dogs
of the Desert or in the desert out in California
that uses poodles.
So don't rule out having a guide dog.
If you or somebody in your family has allergies,
one reference I would suggest people use is
GDUI, which is Guide Dog Users Incorporated.
And so if you just do GD ui.org
and go to their resources link, they have a list
of all the different schools
and then they also have surveys.
Those schools have prepared to show what length
of training they have, what breeds they use,
and it's just a good place to start.
So yes, Ricky, you're absolutely right.
It is not for everyone to have a guide dog,
but just like when we're looking at technology,
don't rule anything out until you do your research.
Possibilities are there, so don't rule anything out.
-: Very well put. Thanks Judy. How about from you?
-: That was a lot of good information, Judy.
I really appreciate that.
I would add to that, that when you do make a decision,
these schools also pay for transportation.
So at the Seeing I, there were people coming from Colorado
and California in Canada.
It wasn't just local people.
So don't hold back thinking you can't go somewhere
because of the distance.
The other thing I would mention is that the process
of filling out the applications
before you actually get the dog, it's a long process.
So I didn't know how long it would take.
Obviously you have to complete all the applications,
get referrals, get medical records, you know, that attest
that you do need a guide dog.
It's not an easy thing to get.
And then once all that is completed, it goes
through a process where the school itself analyzes the
application to determine whether
or not you are, you're a good candidate.
And then the board is presented with the application.
After an interview, a personal interview occurs, they come
to your house and interview.
So they have to make sure that these dogs,
they're very valuable dogs
and they care for these dogs deeply.
They wanna make sure that Vince will be well cared for,
that he will be in a good environment
that I can actually care for the, for the dog
as well as work him.
So yes, don't hold back.
If you have any questions,
you could always visit the schools.
They are very happy to show you around
and acquaint you with their facilities and their process.
-: And, and one final thing I would like to add is yes,
guide dogs are wonderful.
They help this get around,
but there's just that warm fuzzy having a dog
that is devoted to you and is there for you
and is at your feet
and is there for you when you're feeling sad, ready to play.
It just, it's just it.
It adds such a special part to your life to have a dog
and a guy dog especially.
I mean, it's just, it's just amazing.
It's just a, a wonderful experience.
-: Well, this has been so fun and so informative
and I've really enjoyed both of you talking about your dogs
and your experiences.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us
and for sharing the good stuff
and the stuff that's a little bit challenging.
And I hope that if you're listening,
you know a little bit more than you did before
and you're willing to ask questions if you have them.
So thanks so much Nancy and Judy for stopping by.
Really had a wonderful time with both of you.
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